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"No i will not have any trouble facing Marshall."

vcs

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I thought Anderson swung the new ball very well. Maybe Australian conditions are becoming more conducive for conventional swing in the last couple of years... Amir and Asif also did well last year. Also, this generation of Aussie batsmen is struggling to deal with lateral movement and making it look worse. The openers are not protecting the middle order from the new ball as well as Hayden and Langer used to.
 

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Well there are many factors aside from how much swing a guy is getting that impact on whether we even get to see them too. Michael Kasprowicz, for example, used to swing the ball miles on the 'Gabba but since those skills weren't as useful as seam bowling as pitches flattened out, he didn't get picked as often as he might have.

There's other selection issues too. Can only speak of Australia but there have always been more blokes around who can seam the ball and bowl at Test level than swing bowlers who could. Whether true or not, swing bowlers have generally been looked at here as guys you pick for the right conditions only as they give away too many runs looking for swing. Those guys aren't going to get much of a go in the ODI side so it basically comes down why you would bother picking them at all. Only really top bowlers (Fleming, McDermott) got through and even then, Fleming only got a go once he ditched the idea of being a med-fast swing bowler, started hitting the seam and added 5-10Km/h to his pace.

So we've seen blokes who could swing the ball quite a ways being relegated to grade duties. They've been there but just not getting as much of a go even at state level. The more artful parts of cricket (spin, swing) tend to get trumped by conservatism in this country, I reckon.
 

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I thought Anderson swung the new ball very well. Maybe Australian conditions are becoming more conducive for conventional swing in the last couple of years... Amir and Asif also did well last year. Also, this generation of Aussie batsmen is struggling to deal with lateral movement and making it look worse. The openers are not protecting the middle order from the new ball as well as Hayden and Langer used to.
The first point you raise is probably a bit true recently but the bolded a much bigger factor for mine. Aussie batters have historically struggled with good swing bowling (Dougeh Walters' and Greg Chappell's records in England for example), mainly because they don't see it very often. So when they do, "AHHHH, MAGIC!!" *prod* *out*.

I hate to bring him up because I know he has a lot of fans on here but Trent Copeland is surely an archtypical example. Decent swing bowler, yes, but this season and last he has utterly dominated. I don't think he's anywhere near as good as his figures suggest, personally.
 
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vcs

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Think there are many factors that relate to swing, and I dont think its as easy as saying it has everything to do with atmospheric conditions. For example, its hard to think of anyone over the last 20 years or so who has swung that ball as prodigiously in Australia as Marshall did at Brisbane in those clips. It cant just be that people have forgotten how to bowl, especially when you consider the likes of Wasim, Waqar and Donald all experts of swing bowling struggling to get the same kind of movement in Australia that we know they can get, and it cant just be that the atmosphere was playing tricks on them either. Certainly there must be some other factors involved that have hindered even some of the best swing bowlers around from being consistently effective across the world.
Wasim has a very good record in Australia though (apart from his last series). I think Waqar became a more controlled bowler who relied on moving the new ball later in his career, when he came back from injury and cut down his pace. I think this spell is a good example of what I mean. I think he was a bit more scattergun in his early years when he relied more on sheer pace and reverse swinging yorkers. In general, he struggled in Australia.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Kasprowicz not getting a consistent run in the side until 2004 has more to do with the caliber of clowns running the show in Australia over the past decade and a half than his own deficiencies. He was thought to be the one big positive to come out of the tour to India in 97/98 after being forced to lead the attack and yet he was dropped promptly not too long after the series. Not really sure where you are going with this.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Think there are many factors that relate to swing, and I dont think its as easy as saying it has everything to do with atmospheric conditions. For example, its hard to think of anyone over the last 20 years or so who has swung that ball as prodigiously in Australia as Marshall did at Brisbane in those clips. It cant just be that people have forgotten how to bowl, especially when you consider the likes of Wasim, Waqar and Donald all experts of swing bowling struggling to get the same kind of movement in Australia that we know they can get, and it cant just be that the atmosphere was playing tricks on them either. Certainly there must be some other factors involved that have hindered even some of the best swing bowlers around from being consistently effective across the world.
I remember Wasim really swinging it around in Australia both in the air and off the seam. Rob even posted a video of his from the 89 series and the swing that wasim gets is incredible.

I thought Anderson swung the new ball very well. Maybe Australian conditions are becoming more conducive for conventional swing in the last couple of years... Amir and Asif also did well last year. Also, this generation of Aussie batsmen is struggling to deal with lateral movement and making it look worse. The openers are not protecting the middle order from the new ball as well as Hayden and Langer used to.
True

Wasim has a very good record in Australia though (apart from his last series). I think Waqar became a more controlled bowler who relied on moving the new ball later in his career, when he came back from injury and cut down his pace. I think this spell is a good example of what I mean. I think he was a bit more scattergun in his early years when he relied more on sheer pace and reverse swinging yorkers. In general, he struggled in Australia.
Agreed regarding Wasim and Waqar. Waqar had to adapt later on after his injury. He started working more on moving the new ball.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Wasim has a very good record in Australia though (apart from his last series). I think Waqar became a more controlled bowler who relied on moving the new ball later in his career, when he came back from injury and cut down his pace. I think this spell is a good example of what I mean. I think he was a bit more scattergun in his early years when he relied more on sheer pace and reverse swinging yorkers. In general, he struggled in Australia.
Wasim was a more complete bowler in general, Im not sure about his first series in Australia but in his last 2 he struggled to get the ball to swing consistently. Regarding Waqar, I dont believe that he came back a more accurate bowler, I think he learned some new tricks such as getting the new ball to swing, but I reckon for anyone to get those kind of banana swinging yorkers on target, you had to be fairly accurate in the first place. Used to toss the ball towards the slips and it would end up hitting off stump.
 

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Bah, misread your post.

Simple fact is relying on swing can be tough in general but especially here. You risk being driven or nurdled around the corner if you don't get your line/length right and I reckon blokes like Alan Donald really struggled to find other ways to get blokes out when his swing wasn't cutting it. Wasim's Australian record may be reasonable but, 89/90 aside, he rarely looked a genius here.
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
I reckon for anyone to get those kind of banana swinging yorkers on target, you had to be fairly accurate in the first place. Used to toss the ball towards the slips and it would end up hitting off stump.
Not really. I think he himself had a vague idea as to how much the ball would swing but that it will swing some. Sometimes it didn't swing much sometimes it swung wildly and went outside leg stump.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Well I think both McGrath and Wasim were tailor made to bowl in their home conditions. McGrath epitomises the kind of bowler who is likely to succeed in Australia - tall, accurate and reliant upon seam movement whereas Wasim who was skiddier and got the ball to reverse both ways was always going to be more effective at home. Keep in mind that McGrath only really silenced his critics regarding his own bowling in the subcontinent when he toured India in 2004, some of his figures from prior series might look decent but in reality he really never bowled that well. Thought his performance in 2004 was really his watershed in that regard and is probably what ultimately makes most rank him above Wasim.
 

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Never's a stretch, thought he was really good early in 2001.

EDIT: Just checked, 17 poles in 3 Tests in 2001. Having watched it, I'm definitely of the opinion he bowled quite well, tbh.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
Not really. I think he himself had a vague idea as to how much the ball would swing but that it will swing some. Sometimes it didn't swing much sometimes it swung wildly and went outside leg stump.
Think anyone who swings the ball that much is always going to end up sending some down leg side. Swing in general is pretty hard to control, hence why McGrath never bothered with it until he was playing in conditions that were actually conducive for it.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Well I think both McGrath and Wasim were tailor made to bowl in their home conditions. McGrath epitomises the kind of bowler who is likely to succeed in Australia - tall, accurate and reliant upon seam movement whereas Wasim who was skiddier and got the ball to reverse both ways was always going to be more effective at home. Keep in mind that McGrath only really silenced his critics regarding his own bowling in the subcontinent when he toured India in 2004, some of his figures from prior series might look decent but in reality he really never bowled that well. Thought his performance in 2004 was really his watershed in that regard and is probably what ultimately makes most rank him above Wasim.
I am not too sure and I disagree with you again. Seeing McGrath bowl (live) in Pakistan especially in the 1998 series McGrath was still a threat. His figures in Pakistan suggest an average of 31 but IMO he was actually better than that. The openers were always wary of him even though the pitches were roads. This is also what Saeed Anwar told me.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Never's a stretch, thought he was really good early in 2001.
DWTA. Most who watched both Gillespie and McGrath bowl that series said that Gillespie was the one that deserved more credit and was a constant threat all series. The figures might not really reflect that but McGrath kind of just put it out there outside off stump and prayed that someone would edge it but Gillespie genuinely tried to get batsmen out.

The 2004/05 version of McGrath bowled reverse, cutters etc and genuinely looked like a wicket taker.
 

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I said 'good'. Never said anything about whether Gillespie bowled better. 17 wickets at 15 going for < 2/over, you definitely did not bowl poorly.
 

vcs

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Never's a stretch, thought he was really good early in 2001.

EDIT: Just checked, 17 poles in 3 Tests in 2001. Having watched it, I'm definitely of the opinion he bowled quite well, tbh.
At an average of 15. Hard to see how anyone could criticise his 2001 series. Got Sachin and VVS a couple of times, not as if he was taking out tailenders either. The more I think about it, the more I realize just how freakish that series win was for India.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I said 'good'. Never said anything about whether Gillespie bowled better. 17 wickets at 15 going for < 2/over, you definitely did not bowl poorly.
There isn't always a parallel between taking wickets and bowling well. Im not saying he bowled poorly, but the bottom line is that there is more to bowling well than just bowling half a foot outside off stump and waiting for the batsman to edge it. Sure lesser batsmen may play a stupid stroke and get out, but for the majority of that series, most players were happy enough to let him bowl without threatening the stumps and scoring all the runs at the other end off Warne and co.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
There isn't always a parallel between taking wickets and bowling well..
True. I always felt that a lot of times Wasim didn't get wickets with some of the most outstanding deliveries that you will ever see and Waqar on the other end would get a break through with some really bad deliveries.
 

vcs

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There isn't always a parallel between taking wickets and bowling well. Im not saying he bowled poorly, but the bottom line is that there is more to bowling well than just bowling half a foot outside off stump and waiting for the batsman to edge it. Sure lesser batsmen may play a stupid stroke and get out, but for the majority of that series, most players were happy enough to let him bowl without threatening the stumps and scoring all the runs at the other end off Warne and co.
He struck at 48 in that series, the best of any Aussie bowler by a distance. This is despite the long slog in that Kolkata 2nd innings, which most people would agree was down to some of the most incredible batting you'd see, than poor bowling.

And his tactic of bowling a foot across off stump did work on atleast one occasion when he got a dangerous Tendulkar out edging in Mumbai.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
He struck at 48 in that series, the best of any Aussie bowler by a distance. This is despite the long slog in that Kolkata 2nd innings, which most people would agree was down to some of the most incredible batting you'd see, than poor bowling.

And his tactic of bowling a foot across off stump did work on atleast one occasion when he got a dangerous Tendulkar out edging in Mumbai.
Whether it worked or not is questionable. It makes his figures look good, but ultimately it didn't win the series for Australia because he wasn't really a consistent threat. He employed a defensive almost 'Ashley Giles' strategy of taking wickets that relied on batsmen error rather than his own brilliance. Granted theres nothing wrong with that, granted its not poor bowling, but when we are comparing him with Wasim in the subcontinent for example, Wasim was a class above back then simply because he could rip apart even the best batting attacks in those conditions. In McGrath's case, defense was the best form of offense.

Ultimately, Australia didnt win that series because, especially after the first test, the batsmen just saw McGrath off and made hay against the others.
 

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