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"No i will not have any trouble facing Marshall."

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Then do you believe that Waqar too was not uni-dimensional???? While most people might believe that he was one dimensional and had it not been for his back injuries he might have been the best fast bowler ever to play the game in terms of taking wickets. His peak was just phenomenal I don't think McGrath's peak was quite like what Waqar's was and yet Waqar even with the ordinary record of his last few years has a decent enough record to be classified as an ATG and although not quite in his category but still not too far away from McGrath. So you can be quite one dimensional and be phenomenally successful.
Be this the case, "one dimensional" isn't really a criticism. There's just more than one way to skin a cat. It really doesn't matter how you take your wickets as long as you take them - match context and opposition standard certainly matter to me, but skill (and variety of skill) are just means to an end. If you don't do as much with your perceived skill as someone else does with less perceived skill, you're not as good as them. I'm sorry to all the romanticists out there, but if a bowler emerged who literally bowled the exact same boring delivery every time but managed to take 600 wickets @ 12, succeeding in all conditions against all teams and in all circumstances, I'd rate him the greatest ever, one-dimensional or not. I may not enjoy watching him as much as I enjoyed Shane Bond, but that's not the point. The players (Asif and Amir aside :ph34r:) are all out there trying to perform to the best of their ability - that's the end game - not developing more exciting methods of doing the exact same thing to an identical or worse standard.

A player's actual quality and his perceived quality or classic watchability aren't always the same thing.
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
The bolded portion of the quote in post #233 wasn't bolded for fun. The statement clearly stands on its own.
I specifically asked you about the second part of the statement not the first one.

Be this the case, "one dimensional" isn't really a criticism. There's just more than one way to skin a cat. It really doesn't matter how you take your wickets as long as you take them - match context and opposition standard certainly matter to me, but skill (and variety of skill) are just means to an end. If you don't do as much with your perceived skill as someone else does with less perceived skill, you're not as good as them. I'm sorry to all the romanticists out there, but if a bowler emerged who literally bowled the exact same boring delivery every time but managed to take 600 wickets @ 12, succeeding in all conditions against all teams and in all circumstances, I'd rate him the greatest ever, one-dimensional or not. I may not enjoy watching him as much as I enjoyed Shane Bond, but that's not the point. The players (Asif and Amir aside :ph34r:) are all out there trying to perform to the best of their ability - that's the end game - not developing more exciting methods of doing the exact same thing to an identical or worse standard.

A player's actual quality and his perceived quality or classic watchability aren't always the same thing.
I don't think that I ever said that being uni-dimensional was bad in any way...McGrath was as effective as anyone in the history of the game.....
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I specifically asked you about the second part of the statement not the first one.



I don't think that I ever said that being uni-dimensional was bad in any way...McGrath was as effective as anyone in the history of the game.....
I wasn't arguing with you; just expanding on it. :)
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Be this the case, "one dimensional" isn't really a criticism. There's just more than one way to skin a cat. It really doesn't matter how you take your wickets as long as you take them - match context and opposition standard certainly matter to me, but skill (and variety of skill) are just means to an end. If you don't do as much with your perceived skill as someone else does with less perceived skill, you're not as good as them. I'm sorry to all the romanticists out there, but if a bowler emerged who literally bowled the exact same boring delivery every time but managed to take 600 wickets @ 12, succeeding in all conditions against all teams and in all circumstances, I'd rate him the greatest ever, one-dimensional or not. I may not enjoy watching him as much as I enjoyed Shane Bond, but that's not the point. The players (Asif and Amir aside :ph34r:) are all out there trying to perform to the best of their ability - that's the end game - not developing more exciting methods of doing the exact same thing to an identical or worse standard.

A player's actual quality and his perceived quality or classic watchability aren't always the same thing.
You express the sentiment of "bah humbug" better than anyone else I know.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
It looks in that clip that he's bowling from the Nursery End and getting massive seam movement back up the slope to knock over Gooch and Lamb
 

abmk

State 12th Man
First of all, I am fairly certain that I have played and coached cricket at a lot higher level
than either of you have, and I know a lot more about this sport than you ever will. But, that's a discussion for another time and place.

There have been plenty of sporting champions who are essentially one-dimensional. Anybody who thinks you can't become great with an essentially limited set of skills, is seriously clueless. In sport, you have your geniuses who are freakishly gifted, and then you have your self-made champions who take whatever natural talent they were born with, work hard and forge a succesful career. Wasim Akram falls into the first category, and Glenn McGrath falls into the second category. McGrath was undoubtedly a self-made champion, but he was also a primarily one-dimensional bowler with a basic set of tools.

When somebody describes a sportsman as 'one dimensional' it essentially means that their mode of attack, or game plan doesn't vary that much from opponent to opponent, or from situation to situation. As I said earlier, you can still be a champion, and be one-dimensional. Mike Tyson, at the peak of his powers, was one of the greatest heavyweights in history, but he was essentially a one-dimensional fighter. It didn't matter who the opponent was, he would fight in exactly the same way. Muhammad Ali, on the other hand, was a multi-dimensional fighter. He changed his game plan based on the strengths and weaknesses of his opponent. Sometimes he would dance, other times he would stand toe to toe and trade blows, and as he famously did against George Foreman, he went into the 'rope a dope' to wear Foreman down. That is the essence of a multi-dimensional champion: a guy who can change his strategy and his tactics at any given moment, to expose a weakness in his opponent, and give himself the best chance of success.

Karl Malone was one-dimensional basketballer who took a basic set of skills, refined them and became one of the greatest power forwards in history. He relied on the pick and roll with John Stockton, and his outside jumper. He had limitations, but he was still a champion. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, was a basketball genius who could beat you in any number of ways. He read what the defense gave him, and then he formed an appropriate strategy on any given night. One of the reasons why he was simply unstoppable in the clutch, was because he could beat you in so many ways, and opposition coaches didn't know how to defend him. He had so many weapons
in his armory, that he was simply impossible to beat.

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis are two other fast bowling champions, with contrasting methods. Waqar Younis was a one-dimensional fast bowler, in that there was no Plan B. He bowled fast and full, and relied primarily on late reverse swing. He wasn't the type of bowler who had the patience to bowl six dot balls in a row, and build pressure. He was an offensive bowler who thought of taking wickets first, and containing runs second. He started his career that way, and he finished his career that way. That is how he was one dimensional: because there was no subtlety to his bowling, and because he didn't change his game plan at any stage in his career.

Wasim Akram, on the other hand, was a true fast bowling master. He had all the tricks of the trade, and made the subtle adjustments against different opponents, in different conditions. He could attack you in any number of ways. There have always been suspicions that Steve Waugh didn't play the short ball very well, so Akram famously unleashed a bounce barrage in Rawalpindi in 1994. There were other times when conditions were overcast, where he would simply rely on swing. On other occasions if nothing much was happening, he would change his direction of attack, and
come around the wicket in an attempt to give the batsman something else to think about. He was always thinking, and always planning something. Wasim Akram was the quintessential fast bowling master who used his brilliant cricket brain, and his extraordinary natural gifts to beat you in a variety of ways, while Waqar Younis was the ultimate one-trick bowler. One guy was unbelievably multi-dimensional, while the other guy was very one-dimensional. Having said that, it didn't stop either of them from becoming champions.

The comparison between Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath also underlines that different bowlers have different modes of opperation. Warne, like Wasim Akram, was a cricketing genius if ever there has been one. He was the ultimate multi-dimensional bowler. Initially Warne relied on his big spinning leg break, and his relentless accuracy. After finger and shoulder surgery, his bowling underwent a major transformation. He didn't turn the ball as much, and relied much more on subtle variation. Warne was multi-dimensional in the sense that his game plan and tactics changed regularly, depending on the opponent and the prevailing conditions. English and South African batsmen primarily didn't leave their crease, and had unconvincing footwork, so Warne built his entire game plan around this technical deficiency. He enticed them with more flighted deliveries to get them out of their comfort zone, or alternatively he simply decided to starve them of run scoring opportunities, push them back into their crease and eventually trap them with his zooter or flipper.

Against Pakistani batsmen, who had better footwork, but were prone to reckless shot selection, he preyed on their incredible ability to self destruct. He would leave mid-wicket open, and tempt them to hit against the spin; knowing full well that more often than not they would take the bait. Against nearly every opponent, and in every situation, you could see Warne's mind ticking over, constantly planning different strategies.On other occasions, Warne would go around the wicket and bowl into the rough, to change his method of operation and attack the blind-spot. That was the essence of Warne's greatness: that he had a seeminly limitless ammount of ability, and could change plans mid-stream, without missing a beat. Whether he was relying on spin, variety, or just his brilliant cricket brain, Shane Warne was the ultimate multi-dimensional bowler.

Glenn McGrath, on the other hand, by his own admission, had one of the simplest game plans in all of cricket. He built his success around scoreboard pressure, and phenomenal accuracy. McGrath was not a fast bowling genius: he was not Wasim Akram, he was not Malcolm Marshall, and he was not Dennis Lillee. He didn't have all of the tricks of the trade, and as many weapons as other fast bowlers. He took a very fundamental set of skills: polished them, refined them, and became very successful. As I have explained, you can be a bona fide sporting champion, and still be one-dimensional and predictable. Very rarely, did McGrath's game plan change, regardless of the circumstances, the opponents, or the conditions. He lived and died, on the tried and true principles of line and length. He owned the corridor of uncertainty, remained patient and waited for a mistake. McGrath didn't come at you; you had to come at him.

That was the essence of his greatness; a seemingly limitless supply of discipline and patience. He had subtle variations, inside of a very basic framework. Now, he took this very simple game plan to every country in the world, rarely deviated from it, and became one of the greatest fast bowlers the game has seen. Nobody questions his greatness, but very few smart cricketing people consider him to be 'The Greatest'. The reality is that the vast majority of the cricket world rates the likes of Malcolm Marshall, Dennis Lillee, Wasim Akram and a few others slightly ahead of him, because they were more brilliant, more attacking, and more skillful.

Finally, as for you two gentlemen, either you don't understand what 'one-dimensional' means, or you simply don't have the depth of knowledge and understanding, that you thought you did. Before you start accusing others of not knowing anything about cricket, you probably need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
1. I perfectly understand what being one-dimensional means

2. Being one-dimensional doesn't mean you can't be very successful. I know that

3. My point is Mcgrath was NOT one-dimensional. He knew how EXACTLY to bowl to every batsman. It wasn't just bowling in the corridor of uncertainty. He knew how to vary the line and length according to the batsman, according to the circumstances. He had all the tools except for sheer raw pace . Freakish control is ALSO a skill and no one was better at it than Mcgrath

The bold part is what I greatly object to and what many don't realise is FALSE

4. For all of Lillee's and wasim's aggression and mcgrath being classified purely as a defensive bowler, mcgrath's strike rate is better than both ( you might say eras differed for lillee, but both macko and hadlee had a better S/R than lillee, even garner for that matter )

5. For all of warne's genius, what happened to him when he bowled to India ? All that genius got thrown out of the window ? Why was he so owned by the 2 best batsmen of his era - sachin and lara ? mcgrath was as much of a 'genius', if not more, just that he was more subtle

6. Mcgrath was not skilled as say Macko/Lillee/Wasim, but he wasn't one-dimensional either
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
While I don't like Roebuck's work, he does have the occasional flash of brilliance and he's summed up my thoughts on McGrath pretty much perfectly here.



For all the flak that statistical arguments get, I think this is one case that highlights their usefulness. I never got to see Lillee or Marshall bowl, but I've watched a hell of a lot of McGrath and you'd no doubt forgiven for viewing him as a defensive bowler when compared to other fast bowling greats, but his strike rate is still up there with the best. Just because the bloke is plonking it on a length outside offstump and nibbling it one way or the other every now and then rather than sconing a bloke and following it up with a yorker that swings a foot and a half doesn't mean he's not looking to take wickets.
The other thing is.. He worked his game to suit the current trend. He came in when ODis were getting bigger and more frequent and people were getting rather loose outside the offstump and he knew that patience in the 90s was a pretty different one to what the word meant in the 80s among batsmen.. If he were to play in Marshall's era, I am pretty sure he would have tried to bring more variety and variations and perhaps even a bit more pace to his armoury.. Now, whether he would have been just as successful as Marshall in that event is another question, just like there is no way to say a Marshall would have been a success doing what McGrath did in the 90s and 00s..
 

Debris

International 12th Man
You may be having a point about India, but Pakistan batting of 80s were criminally underrated. They were the only players who met West Indian pace quartet's fire with fire. Miandad, Salim Malik are the ones I can remember top of my head doing that. But Zaheer Abbas, Asif Iqbal, Ramiz Raja, Amir Sohail, Saeed Anwar and later Inzamam never shyed away from intimidatory fast bowling. Infact McGrath bowled to a weaker Pakistani team due to match fixing scandals and infighting.
Of the players you mentioned, the only ones that Marshall has bowled to that I can see is Miandad, Malik and Abbas(who had a horrible record against WI). Take a look at the actual batting lineups that Marshall bowled to from Pakistan, not that fantastic. I am not saying that Pakistan was stronger when McGrath was around or that Pakistan never produced any great batsman, just making the point that nothing Marshall bowled to was close to as strong as the sides SA and India had against McGrath.
 

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Who has ever tried to downplay the greatness of Roberts, Holding, Garner and Ambrose? They are all arguably in the top 10 fast bowlers of all time, and deserve all of the tributes that flow their way. A lot of good judges would rate any one of Holding, Ambrose or Roberts as the greatest fast bowler ever, bar none. Having said that, a good majority of the cricket world considers Malcolm Marshall to be just that little bit better.
Precisely that was my point...
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Have made up a 90 min video of a complete Malcolm Marshall bowling innings, cant remember how many overs but its probably 16 or 17, in 1988. Will be 6 videos of 15 mins. First one uploading now. Not his best bowling effort, but he generally took a bit of time to get into series, and this one is a 1st test v Aus.
 

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