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Which cricketer has the most complete record?

abmk

State 12th Man
McGrath averaged 13.77 and 15.35 respectively in 99-00 and 01 series, which means to have averaged 45 and 50 against him is commendable.
he didn't average 45 and 50 "against" mcgrath. That was his average in that series.

mcgrath was absolutely phenomenal in those 2 series, which is what makes the sachin MCG ton, the VVS 167 at sydney, VVS-dravid partnership and sachin 126 at chennai in the decider all the more special IMO
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Tendulkar's fifties in Mumbai in 2001 were two of the best innings you'll ever see. Played some lovely shots off McGrath as well.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Tendulkar's fifties in Mumbai in 2001 were two of the best innings you'll ever see. Played some lovely shots off McGrath as well.
yeah, they were great, but sadly not enough . He got a pearler from mcgrath in the 1st innings .In the 2nd innings, punter caught him off a ball that ricocheted from the helmet of the short leg fielder - splendid catch that was !
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
that it is not necessary that a player does better against a better attack of a team than when its attack is worse



prima facie , ~ 37 .

If you investigate further and look at the events that actually happened, he had 2 pretty good series , in 99 in Aus and in 2001 in Aus ( with some bad decisions against tendulkar thrown in there in those 2 series, that affects the averages massively because it is a small sample )

a one-off test in delhi in 96, mcintyre got him out in the first innings there, mcgrath got him out in the 4th innings at 26 with India chasing a mere 58, which is as useful as almost nothing

then in the 2004 series in India, he was just coming back from injury, failed in the 3rd test.

In the 4th test on a minefield of a pitch in mumbai, failed in the 1st innings, but scored a crucial 55 in the 2nd

Edit: You talk too much about stats at face value instead of looking at what actually happened.

I'll give you another example, in 99-00, sachin ended up with ~270 runs at ~45. But he was batting splendidly and had it not been for a couple of bad decisions would've easily averaged 50+ IMO.

In 2003-04, he scored 400+ at an average of 80+. Looking at that you'd think he had a pretty good series , irrespective of the bowling , right ? He actually struggled for the majority of the series ( 2nd and 3rd tests especially ) and only scored in the 4th

In 2007-08, he averaged less than what he did in 2003-2004, but he was batting MUCH better in 2007-08
Perfect!
Goes to show that stats aren't everything!
 

shankar

International Debutant
Tendulkar's fifties in Mumbai in 2001 were two of the best innings you'll ever see. Played some lovely shots off McGrath as well.
Oh yes. Some gorgeous off-drives off both him and Gillespie in those two innings. That series was practically the last series of the classical attacking Tendulkar.
 

Cevno

Hall of Fame Member
that it is not necessary that a player does better against a better attack of a team than when its attack is worse



prima facie , ~ 37 .

If you investigate further and look at the events that actually happened, he had 2 pretty good series , in 99 in Aus and in 2001 in Aus ( with some bad decisions against tendulkar thrown in there in those 2 series, that affects the averages massively because it is a small sample )

a one-off test in delhi in 96, mcintyre got him out in the first innings there, mcgrath got him out in the 4th innings at 26 with India chasing a mere 58, which is as useful as almost nothing

then in the 2004 series in India, he was just coming back from injury, failed in the 3rd test.

In the 4th test on a minefield of a pitch in mumbai, failed in the 1st innings, but scored a crucial 55 in the 2nd

Edit: You talk too much about stats at face value instead of looking at what actually happened.

I'll give you another example, in 99-00, sachin ended up with ~270 runs at ~45. But he was batting splendidly and had it not been for a couple of bad decisions would've easily averaged 50+ IMO.

In 2003-04, he scored 400+ at an average of 80+. Looking at that you'd think he had a pretty good series , irrespective of the bowling , right ? He actually struggled for the majority of the series ( 2nd and 3rd tests especially ) and only scored in the 4th

In 2007-08, he averaged less than what he did in 2003-2004, but he was batting MUCH better in 2007-08
he played two full series against mcgrath. averaged 46 in one and was MOS. averaged 50 in the other one and scored the match winning hundred in the decider.
no i am not saying that. i am trying to explain how reputations are built. take the 2007-8 ind vs aus series for example. sachin scored two hundreds against the likes of lee, clark and johnson. ponting too, IIRC, scored a hundred. but that series is considered a triumph for tendulkar the batsman despite his team losing the series 2-1. no one remembers what ponting did with the bat. it is because sachin played against a better bowling attack, and in alien conditions. for the opposition batter to score runs against zaheer and co in his home, it would not take the same amount of skill and talent. so tendulkar is hailed as a genius. no one is asking how he would do against mcgrath and warne.

now extend the whole scenario to all of india - australia rivalry in tendulkar's time. or for that matter india vs anyone in his time. while his opponents have feasted on india's weak bowling attack he has consistently delivered against much tougher bowlers. this has been going on for decades. in australia in 99-00 he did that against mcwarne too. and won MOS. did that against mcdermott, reid etc. in 92. delivered against SA in 96. and even in the recent series in SA, his century in third test is more valuable than kallis' twin hundreds because had he not weathered the steyn storm the series would have been lost. his third test century against mcwarne in chennai in 2001 set up the series win for india. the series in which he once again averaged 50+.

had he played all his tests against australia only if warne or mcgrath played in them then he would still have been called a legend. Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

this is how reputations are built. this is how a great player becomes a legend. it is always about doing better than others. look at the context. and please stop relying on that stupid stat about a player X's avg in games against player Y. it means nothing.

This.
 

Riggins

International Captain
yeah, they were great, but sadly not enough . He got a pearler from mcgrath in the 1st innings .In the 2nd innings, punter caught him off a ball that ricocheted from the helmet of the short leg fielder - splendid catch that was !
Do you think there'd be any footage of these on youtube?
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
For the stats minded among us, where is McGrath's weakness in his record? I gather that it isn't as "rounded" as Marshall's, but where is the difference?
 

MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
Marshall averaged under 25 against all (actually under 23) and under 25 away vs every one (32 away in

3 measely tests in New Zealand). More complete IMO. I suspect maybe some find fault with Mcgraths +25 average vs South Africa for example
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
no i am not saying that. i am trying to explain how reputations are built. take the 2007-8 ind vs aus series for example. sachin scored two hundreds against the likes of lee, clark and johnson. ponting too, IIRC, scored a hundred..
I think you're digressing. No one compares Ponting to Tendulkar and focusses on how they did against the other's bowling attack to show who is better or what not. What would that even tell us? Tendulkar is almost always going to play a better attack.

The point is comparing Tendulkar with the Aussie attack he faced and Tendulkar with the best Aussie attack he could have faced show he had differing success. It's not really a discussion; he averages in the 60s without them and in the 40s with them.

Ikki. Didn't I show you once that mcgrath was not the reason for sachin's low average in matches against australia in which mcgrath played? He fell as many times to gillespie too in those games.of course mcgrath got him a few times. But even you agreed that he can't be credited for sachin's low avg in those games. Why do you want to change it again?

Saying he didn't do well against mcwarne is ridiculous; not after a MOS award in one and 50+ avg in the other series.
Even in the matches where Tendulkar scored a sizeable amount, rarely did he get on top of McGrath.

Furthermore, when you add matches where Gillespie played with the attack Tendulkar averages 39. Lara against Dizzy + McWarne averaged 56. And yet Tendulkar averages 10 points higher than Lara against Australia...that's for a reason.



that it is not necessary that a player does better against a better attack of a team than when its attack is worse
prima facie , ~ 37
This is not a question of the batsman, really. Even the Aussie attacks he did face were good-to-very good. However, no one can - or should - say with a straight face that Tendulkar would be averaging 60+, which is what his overall average is currently, when he only averaged above 50 for 1 series. Tendulkar's performances on the whole are OK/good against the best attack but he was not superlative to the extent that someone like Lara was, for example, even though the former has a far better average against Australia.
 
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Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Pakistan and Sri Lanka were the only places McGrath averaged 25+ (31 in Pak, 29 in SL)
How many matches did he play in Pakistan, out of interest? Did he tour in Tubby's first tour as skipper? Can't say I can recall. Presumably he went on the later tour where Taylor made his triple ton, but I can't really remember him playing there much.
 

abmk

State 12th Man
Even in the matches where Tendulkar scored a sizeable amount, rarely did he get on top of McGrath.

Furthermore, when you add matches where Gillespie played with the attack Tendulkar averages 39. Lara against Dizzy + McWarne averaged 56. And yet Tendulkar averages 10 points higher than Lara against Australia...that's for a reason.


This is not a question of the batsman, really. Even the Aussie attacks he did face were good-to-very good. However, no one can - or should - say with a straight face that Tendulkar would be averaging 60+, which is what his overall average is currently, when he only averaged above 50 for 1 series. Tendulkar's performances on the whole are OK/good against the best attack but he was not superlative to the extent that someone like Lara was, for example, even though the former has a far better average against Australia.
regarding lara vs dizzy+warne+mcgrath, he played 5 tests with all 3 in the Aus side, 3 of them during that series in 99. He was superlative in that series, no doubt.

two tests in Aus he scored 7 runs in 4 innings IN Aus , yes, just 7 runs

regarding tendulkar vs all 3 of them, he played 4 tests , all in Ind, averaged 50+ in the 3 test series in 2001. came back from injury in the 2004 series and failed in the nagpur test. so ?

I agree that the difference b/w lara and sachin vs Aus is not as large as the difference in averages suggests. The bold part is correct, but

Just pointing out:

a) sachin's average vs Aus in the matches mcgrath played is skewed by the wrong decisions that went against him to an extent. He did fairly well against Aus even with Mcgrath around.

b) lara was clearly better at home vs mcwarne , sachin was clearly better away

c) Just to illustrate, lara crossed 50 only 4 times in 27 innings vs Aus in Aus with mcgrath around, averaged just 37

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ll;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

mcgrath pretty much had his number in Aus

Again, stop taking stats at face value, especially when the sample size is small. Instead focus on what happened match by match, series by series
 
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