Is Steyn as deadly as Lillee?

[Burgey]

Cricketers' estimation of their fellow players are not the be-all and end-all, IMO. Hadlee and Imran both looked up to Lillee as a teacher/mentor (in the same way Lillee looked up to McKenzie and Snow) and that might account for it; Richards never faced Marshall and I don't know what he thought of Hadlee (or if he was ever asked). IMO though, Marshall, Hadlee, and McGrath were superior bowlers. I don't know if I'd rank Ambrose and Imran as better though.

Yeah they aren't the be all and end all, but neither is looking back and saying "this bloke has an average 1.5 lower than the other bloke and is therefore better".

I'm not saying you're saying that btw, but just as those who've played against blokes can over rate them, so too can people easily just say someone they've seen is the best (eg - Marshall).

 

[Teja.]

I'll never get this league business. IMHO, there are about 10-15 pacers from Lindwall et al. to McGrath now(Consisting of Lillee, Marshall and all the <25 pacers who've had significantly big careers), from the Bradman and Post-Bradman era that are about equal- negligibly better or worse. Who you pick as the best among those will obviously be influenced by your personal bias and who you've seen more of, however, saying there's a league between any of them is not true, IMO.

Steyn is not part of this group for me yet as this is his 4th year as an ATG bowler, He needs 2-3 more seasons, for mine.

 

[smash84]

If you figure in Lillee's WSC record it becomes clear just how good he was. To say he is not in the same league as Hadlee sounds silly to me. They have basically the same record.

For me they're all of a similar league but Lillee did things the others didn't. He was a success when Australia's attack was strong and also a success as a lone wolf. Hadlee and Marshall can only say they did one of those. He was a success as a speed demon and adapted to be the thinking man's bowler post injuries. He could bowl marathon spells and could also take huge hauls in innings (his 10fer per match record is quite ridiculous). All of that aside he was what the likes of Hadlee aspired to be. He transcended his art and he became something of a stereotype - of what a fast bowler ought to be. He was a matchwinner in similar terms as Warne was - in fact he was Warne's idol.

I remember an interview where Viv said after facing Lillee that he and his teammates gained heart. The assault both he and Thommo gave them built them for their future; where after facing them they felt everything else was surmountable. It's quite a big thing where the one batsman who bowlers feared happened to fear facing them.

Quality post.

I'll never get this league business. IMHO, there are about 10-15 pacers from Lindwall et al. to McGrath now(Consisting of Lillee, Marshall and all the <25 pacers who've had significantly big careers), from the Bradman and Post-Bradman era that are about equal- negligibly better or worse. Who you pick as the best among those will obviously be influenced by your personal bias and who you've seen more of, however, saying there's a league between any of them is not true, IMO.

Steyn is not part of this group for me yet as this is his 4th year as an ATG bowler, He needs 2-3 more seasons, for mine.

Well said. Top notch stuff both of these posts.

 

[archie mac]

To say that bowlers like Imran and Hadlee don't know anything about fast bowling or to say that Viv Richards didn't know the class of bowlers is a little hard to digest.

Listening to the greats of the game who played with Lillee and who have good cricketing brains as well tend to rate him very highly so maybe he is not over hyped after all.

But Steyn is gun. I will wait for the end of steyn's career to rate him in the pantheon of great fast bowlers.

The only place I have seen anyone write that Lillee is overhyped are on cricket forums, certainly not in any books on the game I have read

 

[Son Of Coco]

Already answered earlier - if you are going to hold there not being good enough competitors to Steyn in the best batting conditions of decades, surely you've got to hold the fact that Lillee hardly played outside two countries and sucked whenever he did. Next?

It depends on what your argument is...if you're arguing that Lillee wasn't better than Marshall, Holding, Thompson, Khan, etc etc but Steyn is clearly better than guys that would struggle to come close to that pack of bowlers in any era then I don't see what Lillee playing a few matches overseas has to do with it.

Unless, of course, your main goal is to discount as many things as possible to make a very simplistic argument for one or the other. In which case, success!

We could also say that Steyn wasn't the best bowler in the world when there was another guy around who presented a decent challenge...but that would be equally simplistic. He is now, and he's an excellent bowler. And in all probability he'd be the best going around now regardless. Just watched the Pujara ball, what a cracker!

 

[Prince EWS]

I would agree. PEWS might not though.

FWIW I actually think Imran was the greatest cricketer of all time bar none, so I think it's fair to say that I do in fact agree.

 

[The Sean]

FWIW I actually think Imran was the greatest cricketer of all time bar none, so I think it's fair to say that I do in fact agree.

Wow, big call - didn't know that was your view. Not a wildly unreasonable one TBF, though of course one I disagree with.

 

[smash84]

FWIW I actually think Imran was the greatest cricketer of all time bar none, so I think it's fair to say that I do in fact agree.

I agree with The_Sean. That is a big big claim considering that there have been players like Bradman and Sobers in the past. This goes beyond Teja who thinks Imran as the 2nd greatest cricketer ever (so do I).

I for one (and a massive fan-boy I am) think him to be the 2nd greatest ever after Bradman. Bradman though seems to be just a cut above the rest.

 

[smash84]

Wow, big call - didn't know that was your view.

Even I didn't know that was PEWS view.

 

[Prince EWS]

I agree with The_Sean. That is a big big claim considering that there have been players like Bradman and Sobers in the past. This goes beyond Teja who thinks Imran as the 2nd greatest cricketer ever (so do I).

I for one (and a massive fan-boy I am) think him to be the 2nd greatest ever after Bradman. Bradman though seems to be just a cut above the rest.

You've probably gathered this by now, but I like my allrounders.

 

[Prince EWS]

Even I didn't know that was PEWS view.

Well yeah - that much was obvious given you didn't even realise I rated him above Kallis.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I agree with The_Sean. That is a big big claim considering that there have been players like Bradman and Sobers in the past. This goes beyond Teja who thinks Imran as the 2nd greatest cricketer ever (so do I).

I for one (and a massive fan-boy I am) think him to be the 2nd greatest ever after Bradman. Bradman though seems to be just a cut above the rest.

Its The Sean, tbh. The_Sean an entirely different poster FTR

 

[smash84]

Its The Sean, tbh. The_Sean an entirely different poster FTR

Thanks for pointing it out GI. I can't even call you pedantic on this

 

[Teja.]

FWIW I actually think Imran was the greatest cricketer of all time bar none, so I think it's fair to say that I do in fact agree.

Haha, Ahead of Bradman? I always had Imran second best by not as much a margin as people think it to be.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha, Ahead of Bradman?

Indeed. It's not the right thread to go into detail in though because I imagine a lot will disagree and I'll totally derail it. Another day.

 

[vcs]

Bradman
daylight
Sobers = Imran
Lots of others very close behind

for me.

 

[G.I.Joe]

My theory is that PEWS deliberately waited for Got_Spin to leave before making this revelation.

 

[Teja.]

Bradman
daylight
Sobers = Imran
Lots of others very close behind

for me.

For me, Bradman is 1st but there's no daylight between him and Imran and a semi-daylight between Imran and Sobers.

 

[smash84]

Indeed. It's not the right thread to go into detail in though because I imagine a lot will disagree and I'll totally derail it. Another day.

LOL........this does deserve a separate thread indeed. One of the most controversial comments to have ever been uttered on CW I suppose.

For me, Bradman is 1st but there's no daylight between him and Imran and a semi-daylight between Imran and Sobers.

And for me there is no daylight between Imran and Sobers either.

 

[smash84]

My theory is that PEWS deliberately waited for Got_Spin to leave before making this revelation.

what happened to Got_Spin????