Australia - the aftermath of the Ashes

[Furball]

His record is shocking. The fact that some consider him as a candidate for Test honours shows the real lack of depth in our 25-30 age group

His home ground being the Adelaide Oval makes his record even worse.

 

[BoyBrumby]

The thing is though with the older, talented guys like Dussey and Rogers etc. they won't even be in contention much longer anyway because of their age. So once those guys are out of the picture, you have to just look at the younger guys (who I think Bumble is really referring to).

I'm not sure I agree with Bumble that there is no significant talent amongst those players, but it definately is a possibility. While Khawaja looks very promising, he could end up averaging 40 in FC cricket in the long-term for all I know. Just because a player looks quality, doesn't mean they can produce good results - Callum Ferguson being a good example. Phillip Hughes is another one. He was averaging above 60 for quite a while in FC cricket and everyone (the media ) was going on about how he was the next Ponting, but suddenly his FC average has dropped more than a whopping 10 and seems to be continuing downwards. Smith was similar case - FC record above 50 (people got excited), then dropped to low 40's and is continuing to fall.

While I think some of these players at least will actually turn out to be quality test cricketers in the long-term, you can't discount the notion that perhaps our talent reserve might end up being far more disappointing than a lot of us initally thought.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think now more than ever there's a very strong case to select the XI most likely to win the next test rather than have an eye on the years and series down the line.

If the selectors were to go for an older bloke like Hussey jr it would be in the knowledge that if he doesn't hit the ground running there's no case for keeping him for his promise. McGain's call up (and then swift removal) shows that 30-somethings aren't necessarily on the outers as a matter of course, so I think there's more to some of the omissions than just birth certificates.

Cameron White, possibly

Outside the team (ie. not Watson or Clarke), I think the only batsmen in Shield cricket aged 25-30 who actually averages over 40 in First Class cricket are Mark Cosgrove and Cameron White, and they're hardly banging the door down with 50+ career averages.

White's an interesting case. Has been scoring consistently for a good two-three years now, tonned up in the "A" fixture, a good captain by repute and no slouch in the field either, yet seems to have been tagged as an limited overs specialist because of (what's seen as) a slightly loose technique.

Still a technique that's more likely to succeed than Hughes's or Smith's IMHO.

 

[Flem274*]

White strikes me as a North type. Will either get lost early or get a big score.

 

[Prince EWS]

White strikes me as a North type. Will either get lost early or get a big score.

His conversion rate in First Class cricket is actually pretty poor tbh.

 

[Top_Cat]

His home ground being the Adelaide Oval makes his record even worse.

Yeah. For years, it irked that SA players' records had an asterisk next to them in the same way QLD bowlers did, that it was expected you'd score heavily on AO. But at least those blokes were scoring regular tons. Best place for batting in the country (stable hot weather, flat pitch, short square boundaries) and he still can't get near 1000+ in a season.

 

[Tom 1972]

Outside the team (ie. not Watson or Clarke), I think the only batsmen in Shield cricket aged 25-30 who actually averages over 40 in First Class cricket are Mark Cosgrove and Cameron White, and they're hardly banging the door down with 50+ career averages.

Bailey, Marsh and McDonald all have records marginally better than Ferguson's while still being in the same league as him (all average mid to high 30s with under 10 FC hundreds) while Cowan has an almost identical record. A lot was expected of all those players including Ferguson but they never really delivered; it's been quite an under-performing age group of talent.

Averaging >50 isn't an automatic qualification for being Test cricket ready.

England Top 7: Test, FC Batting Averages.

Strauss: 43, 42.
Cook: 47, 46.
Trott: 61, 46.
KP: 49, 48.
Collingwood: 40, 36.
Bell: 45, 44.
Prior: 43, 40.

If someone has an overall FC batting average of 40, has a good technique/temperament and has been averaging 60+ for the past 2 years surely they're worth an opportunity, even if they were rubbish for the first 5 years of their career. Not everyone can play for 10 years and 100 Tests.

Look at Stuart Clark - he had 24 very productive Tests over a 3.5 year period.

I have no problem selecting someone who has a 4 year future at the top level. We just need to be decisive and a little bit ruthless in selection. 1 bad year = blame on you. 2 bad years = blame on me.

 

[Tom 1972]

I don't necessarily disagree, but I do think now more than ever there's a very strong case to select the XI most likely to win the next test rather than have an eye on the years and series down the line.

If the selectors were to go for an older bloke like Hussey jr it would be in the knowledge that if he doesn't hit the ground running there's no case for keeping him for his promise. McGain's call up (and then swift removal) shows that 30-somethings aren't necessarily on the outers as a matter of course, so I think there's more to some of the omissions than just birth certificates.





White's an interesting case. Has been scoring consistently for a good two-three years now, tonned up in the "A" fixture, a good captain by repute and no slouch in the field either, yet seems to have been tagged as an limited overs specialist because of (what's seen as) a slightly loose technique.

Still a technique that's more likely to succeed than Hughes's or Smith's IMHO.

And he's an excellent slipper.



and a Victorian.

 

[GotSpin]

English conditions much better suited for bowling and it's a sure sign when our batsmen can't even cash in at the AO.

 

[Ruckus]

1 bad year = blame on you. 2 bad years = blame on me.

Sorry, but you got that saying all wrong. This is how it's meant to be:

YouTube - Bush "Fool Me Once..."

 

[howardj]

Sky Sports | Cricket | Columnists | David Lloyd | Let's go to the Bop

Is Bumble right? Are were all deluded into thinking Australia still has a good talent pool? Are Smith, Hughes and Khawaja highly rated simply because of some feeble sense of hope that they might be the next big thing, or, in reality, are they just mediocre players who won't produce in the long run?

I like Bumble, but let's not think that he has the first clue about Australia's talent pool. It shocks me how little these TV commentators (especially Channel Nine) know about modern day cricket and cricketers from other countries especially.

For mine, Usman, Smith, Hughes, Maddinson, Ferguson (who should be judged by how much he has improved during the last two years, rather than his overall FC record always being trotted out), Paine, MMarsh, Pattinson, George, Starc, Hazlewood etc is a good pool to draw from in the future and in some cases the present.

Bumble wouldn't know half of those players if he met them.

 

[Ausage]

While posting teams for SL at this stage might be fun for us tragics, we should be hoping to see alot of cricket from the selection candidates between now and August. Anyone, both young and old who wants to be in the SL squad should be playing as much Shield and County cricket as possible between now and August. That goes for the players who played in the Ashes, but also those a rung below, Ferguson, Cosgrove, Marsh, White, Copeland etc.

In particular, Hughes, Smith and Khawaja should be watched closely. I would love to see all three in the team for Sri Lanka, but if they fail miserably between now and August, I don't see how picking them would help either them or the team.

Have a hunch that Ponting will retire after the WC, and that Katman won't be around for SL either, so there will be openings imo. Only a hunch obv.

Besides, sending players back to Shield/County teams might actually see them get some decent coaching

Others have said it, but I think the most important thing for Australian cricket is to have a comprehensive shake up of the administration. When you really look at it, the situations of Hodge, Rogers and Hauritz is a horrific state of affairs, and should be enough to get a selection panel fired on its own. Picking (or not picking) on the basis of favoritism is indicative of the cronyism that falls on fading empires. I cannot think of any sport where a selection team would hold on to their jobs after not picking the best players because of favoritism, and getting hammered in the process.

On of the most depressing parts of the summer was watching Hauritz hit 2 tons for NSW in the weeks leading up to us being bowled out for 98 on a wicket that was never going to work for 4 quicks. Just diabolical.

 

[howardj]

Agreed. The admin, coaching, selecting is the easy stuff that should be addressed forthwith. Sutherland gone, a new board structure, Neilsen gone, and obviously Hilditch. As I've said, when you have no longer got the best players then you have to use the off-field stuff (like admin, coaching, selecting) to close the gap as much as possible between you and the leading nations. For Australia at present, the afforementioned off-field stuff is actually making the gap bigger.

 

[howardj]

Another problem as I see it, is that older guys are not going back to play Shield cricket, but rather go and play IPL

McGrath, Hodge, Warne, Gilchrist and even the Maher's and Kasprowicz and Bichels went to ICL.

More need to do a Langer, Border etc and put something back into Shield.

 

[robelinda]

Another problem I see is that the young batsmen in Shield cricket have really suspect techniques too, much like the test players. There's not many at all you could say have the technique to cope at test level, and that includes Ferguson, White etc. Lots of very loose players outside off stump, dont know why this has come about the last year or two. Surely not T20 fault, but you never know.

 

[GotSpin]

Another problem as I see it, is that older guys are not going back to play Shield cricket, but rather go and play IPL

McGrath, Hodge, Warne, Gilchrist and even the Maher's and Kasprowicz and Bichels went to ICL.

More need to do a Langer, Border etc and put something back into Shield.

It's annoying, because they could easily do both too

 

[howardj]

Good point. I mean, think of the more experienced people at your work. For me, working alongside them closely can really fast-track your development. It would be good to see those guys play for a couple of years, even if they don't train fulltime with the squad.

 

[Top_Cat]

Find that to be a bit utopian. Easy to say from the punter's perspective they shouldn't be chasing the $ but they have every right to earn from their careers in any way they want, making the most of what is a shorter career at the top than most sports. Would guess that were the IPL around in AB's time, there'd have been a lot of old blokes heading to India (or South Africa or wherever they plan to play the Indian Premier League). AB himself headed to England regularly purely to supplement his income (rightly so) and if there was IPL on offer, easy money for a fraction of the time commitment, reckon the decision would have been fairly obvious.

The biggest piece of the puzzle in terms of Shield cricket, for mine, is current players. It's incredible how little State cricket blokes like Ponting, Clarke, Johnson, Watson and Haddin have played in the last few years.

 

[howardj]

The two are not mutually exclusive though - IPL and Shield. They don't really clash as such, as G_T pointed out.

Agree about the current players hardly playing. They've really become disconnected from their State squads.

Criminal that they are thinking of re-arranging the schedule so the international players can play more Big Bash, and yet they won't undertake the same rearrangement so they can play more Shield.

 

[GotSpin]

Good point. I mean, think of the more experienced people at your work. For me, working alongside them closely can really fast-track your development. It would be good to see those guys play for a couple of years, even if they don't train fulltime with the squad.

On the same note, they could be blocking the younger players from coming through. I have more issues with current test players not playing shield cricket than those who have retired

 

[Top_Cat]

See, I dunno if it's that they can't play state cricket. The guys with the best form this season (Hussey, Watto, Siddle) have played all forms of the game they can get their paws on for Australia, IPL and fit in some state cricket. The guys with the worst form (Johnson, Clarke, Ponting) played nowhere near as much cricket, came into this summer claiming they were fresh as daisies from all the rest they had and have skipped state games.

True or not, it looks like the senior players are using that clout to pick and choose their games. Fair enough if they were smashing it but they're all batting and bowling like ****s.