Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[ankitj]

Wasn't your argument originally that his record against Pakistan was poor because he couldn't handle Waqar/Wasim/Saqlain well and he had to wait for them to go in order to improve? People are saying the opposite here.. that he actually did well against Pakistan when they had Waqar/Wasim/Saqlain/Imran (inspite of having a lower average) and did worse after 2004 when they had a weaker attack, despite averaging more. That's why context is so important.

I'm aware that what I've written above may sound nonsensical and counter-intuitive, but anyone who actually followed those series would realize what I mean.

I will second that and will go further to say that it's rather simplistic to look at scorecard of a match to see how many bowlers with huge reputations were playing to assess the difficulty of scoring against them. Shoaib Akhtar and Mohd Asif, even though lesser stars compared to 2 Ws, bowled better against India over their careers, or at least against Tendulkar. Asif bowled absolutely superbly in the 2006 series and gave Tendulkar the hardest of times that any bowler has given. (Remember the clean bowled of Tendulkar that made him squat?)

Playing poorly against Akhtar and Asif also deserves criticism of course. My point is making any points by just looking at names with great reputations is too simplistic. Even Zaheer and Sreesanth have been very hard to play when conditions have assisted.

 

[Teja.]

FTR, The only times Waqar played Tendulkar were just before the former's peak and a whiel after it. While facing Waqar in his peak certainly deserves a lot more credit than facing pretty much any other bowler, The Waqar Tendulkar faced in 98 was no more than a strictly 'good' bowler, a richer version of Johnson today, he could suddenly take wickets out of nowhere but largely averaged about 27-30 despite 1 or 2 years in random where he had ATG figures after his peak too.

In other words,

Shoaib + Asif > Wasim + The version of Waqar that Tendulkar faced.

 

[ankitj]

FTR, The only times Waqar played Tendulkar were just before the former's peak and a whiel after it. While facing Waqar in his peak certainly deserves a lot more credit than facing pretty much any other bowler, The Waqar Tendulkar faced in 98 was no more than a strictly 'good' bowler, a richer version of Johnson today, he could suddenly take wickets out of nowhere but largely averaged about 27-30 despite 1 or 2 years in random where he had ATG figures after his peak too.

In other words,

Shoaib + Asif > Wasim + The version of Waqar that Tendulkar faced.

Spot on.

 

[smash84]

The debate for the past few pages has been quite absorbing with Ikki slugging it out with the rest of the posters in this thread. Bagapath coming in from time to time but not participating so actively in this debate. So some very good postings here in this thread.

To add my 2 cents here I must say that for a 16 year old Tendulkar facing Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Qadir in his first series was really a baptism of fire. Waqar at one point had broken Tendy's nose and there was quite a bit of bleeding as well. Every one knows that Imran never gave any quarter to any one and Sachin was no exception (he dismissed him twice in that series I think). Tendulkar himself described on his 20 years in cricket an anecdote regarding his first test match where he had to face Wasim and the way that he spoke (you can find the interview on youtube) one could tell that it was indeed not an easy feat. Abdul Qadir was arguably the greatest leg spinner before Shane Warne and had probably the greatest variety that any spinner ever had.

Averaging 35 against such a top notch attack is no mean feat. I can't think of too many 16 year olds who could stand up to that kind of an attack. Waqar was lightning quick at that time. Just sheer raw pace. It is against this backdrop that Sachin's average of 35 has to be seen. And I personally think that for a debutant against an attack of such stellar quality it was no mean feat.

That Tendy link is here. It makes for great hearing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiwLKaP5moc

 

[vcs]

Spot on.

You make a good point that the 2006 attack was not strictly weaker on actual performance because Asif, Akhtar, Razzaq and Gul (?) were bowling very well in that series. But the pitches in the India-Pakistan matches this decade have been, by and large, roads, whereas in the '99 matches, they were much more bowler friendly and all produced low-scoring games.

 

[smash84]

You make a good point that the 2006 attack was not strictly weaker on actual performance because Asif, Akhtar, Razzaq and Gul (?) were bowling very well in that series. But the pitches in the India-Pakistan matches this decade have been, by and large, roads, whereas in the '99 matches, they were much more bowler friendly and all produced low-scoring games.

The pitches in 1999 were not too batsman friendly. The new ball did get some assistance. Also Wasim was gun with the old ball in that series. That Chennai match, everyone was waiting for Tendy to fall and had faith in Wasim to clean up the tail for less than 10 runs with that reverse swing.

 

[JBH001]

I'm curious...what does he have to do to have a poor record against someone? Either he was too young, his wicket wasn't taken enough by a specific batsman or that 8 matches are seemingly a bad sample all of a sudden? Christ, he did poorly against Pakistan when they had a very strong attack. That's pretty much all there is to it. Even now, overall, his average is about 42. This in an era where the likes of Misbah, Younis, Sehwag Waterboy have some ridiculous averages in these series. He averaged 36 in a series of bore draw run fests.

I'm sorry but this is evasive nonsense (not least because I remember following that series on Sportstar as a young boy and being aware of the huge expectation and interest around it; but that is not the point). Please answer the question. Do you think Tendulkar's first series in test cricket a failure?

 

[Hit Wicket]

Sorry to have missed the context of the thread for the last 4-5 pages which I read, but is it an exercise in running innovative queries on stats guru?

 

[Ikki]

I'm sorry but this is evasive nonsense (not least because I remember following that series on Sportstar as a young boy and being aware of the huge expectation and interest around it; but that is not the point). Please answer the question. Do you think Tendulkar's first series in test cricket a failure?

I think he'd be proud of it...but as a pure exercise in judging him against these attacks he is a failure. People consider starts in careers with a different lens. People may think "Tendulkar averaged 35 against such a fantastic attack in his teens...he'll surely do better against them when he gets older" and that's a cause for praise and optimism at the time. In reflection, it didn't end up happening did it?

 

[Hit Wicket]

I think he'd be proud of it...but as a pure exercise in judging him against these attacks he is a failure. People consider starts in careers with a different lens. People may think "Tendulkar averaged 35 against such a fantastic attack in his teens...he'll surely do better against them when he gets older" and that's a cause for praise and optimism at the time. In reflection, it didn't end up happening did it?

Didn't know that the attack Tendulkar faced in '89 was the same as '99?

Maybe stats guru showed them up the same because you queried by "Opposition country - Pakistan"?

 

[bagapath]

I think he'd be proud of it...but as a pure exercise in judging him against these attacks he is a failure. People consider starts in careers with a different lens. People may think "Tendulkar averaged 35 against such a fantastic attack in his teens...he'll surely do better against them when he gets older" and that's a cause for praise and optimism at the time. In reflection, it didn't end up happening did it?

of course it happened. if his overall average against pakistan is 42 then he must have done better against them in the future series, right?

 

[Burgey]

The debate for the past few pages has been quite absorbing with Ikki slugging it out with the rest of the posters in this thread. Bagapath coming in from time to time but not participating so actively in this debate. So some very good postings here in this thread.

To add my 2 cents here I must say that for a 16 year old Tendulkar facing Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Qadir in his first series was really a baptism of fire. Waqar at one point had broken Tendy's nose and there was quite a bit of bleeding as well. Every one knows that Imran never gave any quarter to any one and Sachin was no exception (he dismissed him twice in that series I think). Tendulkar himself described on his 20 years in cricket an anecdote regarding his first test match where he had to face Wasim and the way that he spoke (you can find the interview on youtube) one could tell that it was indeed not an easy feat. Abdul Qadir was arguably the greatest leg spinner before Shane Warne and had probably the greatest variety that any spinner ever had.

Averaging 35 against such a top notch attack is no mean feat. I can't think of too many 16 year olds who could stand up to that kind of an attack. Waqar was lightning quick at that time. Just sheer raw pace. It is against this backdrop that Sachin's average of 35 has to be seen. And I personally think that for a debutant against an attack of such stellar quality it was no mean feat.

That Tendy link is here. It makes for great hearing.

YouTube - Sachin Tendulkar recalls facing Wasim Akram in his first test

Cheers for that link mate.

Out of interest, and OT really, does Tendulkar give many interviews on Indian TV? I don't mean post-match pressers where the platitudes flow, but in depth ones. If there are many about and anyone has links to them, it would be good to hear them.

Edit: assuming they're in English. I mean, they won't be such good hearing to me if they aren't.

 

[bagapath]

VCS: Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

My point was a reply to baga in a different thread regarding completeness. Baga touted his improved records against Pak and SA and I had said that he'd done so after their great attacks retired. Mostly in jest although there is some truth to it.

I got that tongue in cheek thing, mate. but i do want you to hear me out that he did not fail against akram and waqar.

in my opinion tendulkar wasnt great against mcgrath. not a flop as it was wrongly assumed until a careful analysis revealed otherwise. still, i dont think he dominated mcgrath ever.

if you ask me against whom he failed, i think he never mastered shaun pollock. and i do think akhthar had the wood on him in test matches. among spinners saqlain comes first and murali next. but compared to shan pollock and akhthar, and mcgrath in third position, neither of those great offies controlled his fate that much.

so.... if you ask me what is the bowling attack sachin would least like to face I would say pollock, akhthar, mcgrath, saqlain and murali. he is very likely to average in mid to low 30s against them over 20+ tests.

 

[vcs]

Cheers for that link mate.

Out of interest, and OT really, does Tendulkar give many interviews on Indian TV? I don't mean post-match pressers where the platitudes flow, but in depth ones. If there are many about and anyone has links to them, it would be good to hear them.

Edit: assuming they're in English. I mean, they won't be such good hearing to me if they aren't.

He does not make a good interviewee at all. He speaks in mostly boring platitudes and cliches.

 

[vcs]

I got that tongue in cheek thing, mate. but i do want you to hear me out that he did not fail against akram and waqar.

in my opinion tendulkar wasnt great against mcgrath. not a flop as it was wrongly assumed until a careful analysis revealed otherwise. still, i dont think he dominated mcgrath ever.

if you ask me against whom he failed, i think he never mastered shaun pollock. and i do think akhthar had the wood on him in test matches. among spinners saqlain comes first and murali next. but compared to shan pollock and akhthar, and mcgrath in third position, neither of those great offies controlled his fate that much.

so.... if you ask me what is the bowling attack sachin would least like to face I would say pollock, akhthar, mcgrath, saqlain and murali. he is very likely to average in mid to low 30s against them over 20+ tests.

With Cronje bowling part-time medium pace. Didn't Pedro Collins also really trouble him in one series?

 

[abmk]

I got that tongue in cheek thing, mate. but i do want you to hear me out that he did not fail against akram and waqar.

in my opinion tendulkar wasnt great against mcgrath. not a flop as it was wrongly assumed until a careful analysis revealed otherwise. still, i dont think he dominated mcgrath ever.

if you ask me against whom he failed, i think he never mastered shaun pollock. and i do think akhthar had the wood on him in test matches. among spinners saqlain comes first and murali next. but compared to shan pollock and akhthar, and mcgrath in third position, neither of those great offies controlled his fate that much.

so.... if you ask me what is the bowling attack sachin would least like to face I would say pollock, akhthar, mcgrath, saqlain and murali. he is very likely to average in mid to low 30s against them over 20+ tests.

akhthar didn't really trouble him that much and neither did shaun except for that 2006 series in tests ( though he did trouble him the most in ODIs ) ... pollock went for quite a bit like the others when sachin hit that 155 @ Bloemfontein

if asked to pick an attack toughest for him, I'd say collins,mcgrath,donald,cronje,saqlain

 

[JBH001]

I think he'd be proud of it...but as a pure exercise in judging him against these attacks he is a failure. People consider starts in careers with a different lens. People may think "Tendulkar averaged 35 against such a fantastic attack in his teens...he'll surely do better against them when he gets older" and that's a cause for praise and optimism at the time. In reflection, it didn't end up happening did it?

Sounds to me like you are splitting hairs again. But I'll go with the first sentence and note that your opinion is that as a pure exercise, presumably that means some sort of "objective" analysis, Tendulkar failed in his debut series against Pakistan because he averaged close to 36 against Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Qadir. Thanks.

IMO, and I think others have said this, Tendulkar usually had more trouble against precise and crafty line and length pace merchants like McGrath, Pollock and Asif than out and out attacking speedsters like Wasim or Waqar or Steyn (or for that matter Akhtar). (Donald, however, is something of an exception.) He also had some trouble against Saqlain and Murali although he usually gave as good as he got in these battles and the final tally ended up even.

 

[bagapath]

kallis' poor record in england (avg , 30) and his overall bad record against SL (no hundreds yet!) should also tilt the kallis vs ponting argument in favor of ricky because other than ponting's failures in india and a weak ashes career he has a pretty fine record. even in india he has shown signs of great improvement over the last two series. but his earlier failures have been so colossal that the average has stayed in the 20s.

 

[kingkallis]

Kallis certainly will have to lift his game against Sri Lanka this year when they play the Lankans.

 

[vcs]

Kallis certainly will have to lift his game against Sri Lanka this year when they play the Lankans.

Is it home or away?