Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[Hit Wicket]

I see what you're saying, though there have been a lot of discussions on here about whether it's better to bowl in a good attack or to stand out in a lesser one.

I tend to think Ponting's form problems relate more to age than to much else. Combine that with the captaincy of a team that isn't performing well - which he must inevitably devote his time to as well - and it kind of feeds on itself.

I mean, i personally think it's difficult to say Player X is > Player Y because when he was in his pomp he played in a weak team and when Player Y's team went South so did his form in his mid-late 30s

As always, many variables at work.

I don't see how bowling in a weaker attack is easier - I know you used the words 'stand out' and maybe I am taking an incorrect liberty in extrapolating. As I see it, bowling in a weaker attack is going to give a bowler a better wicket/innings ratio, but on the flip side his average will suffer. Even good to very good bowlers who bowled in the West Indian set up of the 80s and 90s had pretty good averages because of the surrounding greats like Marshall, Holding and Ambrose.

I agree, age is a factor now with Ponting - over the last year or so, probably precipitated by the blow by Roach. However, his batting performance took a fall much before that. He was still what 32 in 2007, when the numbers started to go down. That's hardly an age when reflexes slow down. Personally, I feel the single biggest factor was losing Hayden. They've had some superb partnerships together at the top of the order. Perhaps after losing such an effective enforcer at the top of the order, Ponting felt compelled to do both his job as well as Hayden's. And it has come off spectacularly at times - the Headingly innings in the '09 Ashes was pure class, probably his best innings of the last 4 years. But the consistency was gone.

I also agree on the captaincy argument. Besides the fact that he was never a brilliant captain or even a very good one, he took too much pressure upon himself to rebuild the side. I feel Ponting still has 2-3 years left in him averaging 45-50, which would be really good for Australia, but not with the captaincy.

As on a lot of occasions it's easy to come up with a correlation, but whether there is a causality is tough to say. IMO, there is in Ponting's case because of the manner in which the timelines match up almost exactly. Of course, there is no definitive way to prove it.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah. Was interesting listening to the ABC over the Ashes and the comments about how he just doesn't seem to enjoy the game much these days. Seems it's all getting on top of him these days. Would be interesting to see if he dropped the captaincy whether he would come back to something approaching the way he used to play.

 

[Top_Cat]

Many old captains reckon 5 years is someone's use-by date in the job. Ponting's been captain longer than that now and it would have to get to you eventually. AB had a famously lean patch before a late career sort-of revival. Must be hard to maintain the 'fun' in cricket if you're in charge.

 

[tooextracool]

Many old captains reckon 5 years is someone's use-by date in the job. Ponting's been captain longer than that now and it would have to get to you eventually. AB had a famously lean patch before a late career sort-of revival. Must be hard to maintain the 'fun' in cricket if you're in charge.

Ponting's end date was after he lost the ashes for the 2nd time. Should have focused on his batting and helped guide a younger player towards the early stages of captaincy even if that person was Clarke.

 

[Spark]

Helped that Clarke was coming off one of his best series to date.

 

[vcs]

Good reading this last page. Without wanting to sound patronizing or moderator-ish, nice to see this topic being debated in a level-headed way without any disparaging, cheap shots etc.

 

[tooextracool]

Helped that Clarke was coming off one of his best series to date.

Yes, as much as I dont think Ponting should be captain now, Australian cricket needs him to be captain for a little bit longer. Its easy to say Ponting should drop the captaincy, but unless Im missing something there is no alternative. Making Clarke captain now while hes going through one of the worst batting patches of his career is not logical. Will probably hurt Ponting's batting record, but he's kind of already ruined how history will judge him (both as a player and captain) simply because of the way hes handled the situation.

 

[Spark]

The game changes a bit now that Clarke has actually captained once though.

 

[smash84]

The Gilly and McWarne retirements and the drastic loss of form of Ponting at the same time are too much of a coincidence for me to conclude that it is mostly age that has contributed to Ponting's decline. I think playing in a strong team makes it easier to perform. One certainly has less pressure knowing that if I fail there are other blokes who can go out and finish the job.

 

[Ikki]

Conversely, there is less pressure on a batsman whose team is not expected to win as much.

The difference between Ponting batting in a worse side and someone like Tendulkar is that even when Ponting's team has become weaker the expectations for the team have remained largely the same.

Personally, I disagree with the notion that the likes of McGrath and Warne were helping Ponting bat better. As great as the team Ponting had...he saved our asses and scored plenty of runs when the others faltered. There is an interesting stat I remember that showed whether Hayden/Langer scored <50 or >50 Ponting scored at the same rate regardless. That says a lot about his mentality.

I think it's just age; coupled with the burden of captaincy to lead a new strong Australia; the inevitability of a form slump...which has in turn exacerbated everything for him. Don't read the last rites yet; he'll be back.

 

[honestbharani]

I think it is MUCH more difficult to be able to do well when the entire team depends on you for the runs and you are the only world class guy around in the side... And Lara and Sachin managed that quite a bit better than Ponting... And while Ponting is a great batsman and one of the ATGs, I always got the feeling watching him that he would struggle a bit once the greats left his side.. Got that feeling when he was at his peak itself... Kallis, is a hard one because unlike Ponting, I think Kallis CAN be at the same level as Lara or Sachin but for some reason he never asserted himself in his batting side, esp. when they had a lot of decent batsmen who could do a job but never one who would take the game to the opposition.. I always felt he let his side down that way during the late 90s and esp. during the first few years of the noughties... All personal opinion based on having watched all of those games... My two cents... I agree there is a chance that I might be wrong but I would just hope people understand that there is an equal chance that I am right too.


At the end of the day, I think 30 years from now, it will be Lara and Sachin who will be remembered as the best of their era and Kallis and Ponting a rung below that. We will have to wait and see.

 

[robinjr]

What's the Watson/Katich average opening partnership?Read few posts which suggest not having Langer and Hayden to see out the new ball is the reason behind Ponting's recent slump but if there's anything that actualy went right in our cricket in recent years,it's the Watson/Katich opening combination which has been so consistent.

Voted for Ponting long ago anyways just becourse he's simply the more talented bat(imo)

 

[bagapath]

I think it's just age; coupled with the burden of captaincy to lead a new strong Australia; the inevitability of a form slump...which has in turn exacerbated everything for him. Don't read the last rites yet; he'll be back.

as batting coach of tasmania T-20 second XI!

 

[smash84]

 

[Spark]

What's the Watson/Katich average opening partnership?Read few posts which suggest not having Langer and Hayden to see out the new ball is the reason behind Ponting's recent slump but if there's anything that actualy went right in our cricket in recent years,it's the Watson/Katich opening combination which has been so consistent.

Voted for Ponting long ago anyways just becourse he's simply the more talented bat(imo)

Their average partnership is very good - 50 IIRC - the problem is they are both notoriously poor at cashing on starts. The argument made above is that the Hayden-Ponting parternship was a hugely dominant one because Hayden could be the intimidator allowing Ponting just played freely. Can't do that nowadays, mostly because they get out before a meaningful partnership can develop. Neither of them are as aggressive as Hayden anyway.

 

[Furball]

If Ponting loses points for being crap when Australia have been crap, surely he gains ****loads for averaging 70 for a 5 year period where Australia crushed everyone?

 

[smash84]

Their average partnership is very good - 50 IIRC - the problem is they are both notoriously poor at cashing on starts. The argument made above is that the Hayden-Ponting parternship was a hugely dominant one because Hayden could be the intimidator allowing Ponting just played freely. Can't do that nowadays, mostly because they get out before a meaningful partnership can develop. Neither of them are as aggressive as Hayden anyway.

Good theory

 

[Spark]

If Ponting loses points for being crap when Australia have been crap, surely he gains ****loads for averaging 70 for a 5 year period where Australia crushed everyone?

Averaged more than 70 didn't he? Was more or less invincible in two separate two-three year periods either side of 04 IIRC.

 

[honestbharani]

If Ponting loses points for being crap when Australia have been crap, surely he gains ****loads for averaging 70 for a 5 year period where Australia crushed everyone?

No, coz it is all cause and effect. He is able to do well knowing he has back up and that his team mates can still get the job done even if he fails.. He can't do that now when his side is not so good. Others did it.


EDIT: It came across a little too simplistic there in my post and I am not being fully serious about it. I do think Ponting is a wonderful player but I think there is a slight difference in terms of levels of batsmanship between him and Sachin/Lara...

 

[smash84]

The Gilly and McWarne retirements and the drastic loss of form of Ponting at the same time are too much of a coincidence for me to conclude that it is mostly age that has contributed to Ponting's decline. I think playing in a strong team makes it easier to perform. One certainly has less pressure knowing that if I fail there are other blokes who can go out and finish the job.

No, coz it is all cause and effect. He is able to do well knowing he has back up and that his team mates can still get the job done even if he fails.. He can't do that now when his side is not so good. Others did it.


EDIT: It came across a little too simplistic there in my post and I am not being fully serious about it. I do think Ponting is a wonderful player but I think there is a slight difference in terms of levels of batsmanship between him and Sachin/Lara...

Ditto