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Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

Who is the better test batsman


  • Total voters
    140

vcs

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Dude, indian attack has been pretty ordinary over the years. They have always, somehow :laugh: , done the job at hand and have never really looked threatening.

Just loook at their avgs mate.
So true, especially in the last couple of years. :laugh:

I love this fact BTW.
 

vcs

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I totally agree with you mate.
An avg of 40 something is pretty decent against quality bowling line-ups.
Ponting's Ashes 2005 was good purely because of his Old Trafford innings. In a low-scoring series, if you can provide even one match-turning effort in a series with the bat, I'd take it, regardless of averages.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
So true, especially in the last couple of years. :laugh:

I love this fact BTW.
It goes to show that taking wickets at important moments > taking wickets cheaply when it comes to winning.

It's why I rate Warne so highly. It's almost impossible to show in numbers but it's vivid to see when it's happening. There's a reason fans were calling for Warne to return than McGrath.
 

JBH001

International Regular
I've said earlier that I consider Ponting, IMO, to be considerably superior to Kallis as a batsman and that Kallis would have to do one hell of a lot in the 1 - 3 years remaining of his career for me to change my mind and revise my estimation of him as a batsman vis a vis Ponting (let alone even consider him to be Ponting's superior).

But statistics like this make me want to revise my opinion a lot quicker:

The Numbers Game: Jacques Kallis, take a bow | Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

Some fantastic statistical achievements there by Kallis (over the last 12 years; this is one hell of a period of sustained excellence) which makes me think that if Ponting is better, it is not by much. And, if I am correct, and Ponting's career is effectively now over, if Kallis continues in this vein then I will have to begin to consider Kallis as Ponting's equal and perhaps even his superior. At any rate, there is less to separate them than I originally thought.
 
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vcs

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It's quite amazing how Kallis has gone from underrated to overrated in the span of a series. Look, Kallis is a fantastic cricketer; an all-time great. His batting is in the league of Sachin, Ponting, Dravid and Lara, certainly. However, I would say he is inferior to them, still. With regards to Ponting; one has to remember that Kallis has scored a ****load against B/Z where Ponting has had very few matches against them.

Without minnows, the difference between them is 2 runs on average in favour of Kallis and 15 points on SR in favour of Ponting. I'd say that more or less puts them equal in terms of crude output. I say that because I read Marcuss arguing how Kallis simply scored more runs and was hence better. That's like saying Yousuf is better than Steve Waugh.

But that doesn't scratch the surface IMO because it says little about the quality of the runs scored. I'd always thought Kallis generally scored runs in easier situations/against easier attacks than Ponting but I decided to see if that is the case. Since they're both practically the same age, have played the same amount, debuted the same year and even peaked during the same decade against most the same attacks I decided to look at their records since 1995 - the year they debuted. I have ranked the best bowling attacks from top to bottom and shown who has done better against them.



The top 5 attacks during their time were Australia, S.Africa, Sri Lanka, England and Pakistan. Against them Kallis averages 44.87 @ 44; Ponting averages 52.22 @ 61. Furthermore, Ponting averages above 50 away and at home against all of them bar England (42 and 44). Kallis on the other hand averages in the 30s against both SL and Aus in S.Africa. He averages in the 20s against England in England and in the 30s against SL in SL. At home, he averages above 43 only against Pakistan.

Of course Ponting doesn't face Australia and Kallis doesn't face S.Africa. However, Ponting has a fantastic record against S.Africa and Kallis has a mediocre record against Australia. Where Kallis catches up overall is against the bottom 5 attacks. Not that Ponting does poorly; Kallis just made merry to a greater extent.

Against the bottom 5 attacks Kallis averages 76.74 @ 46; Ponting averages 55.35 @ 58. Against these teams Ponting averages 60+ in every country bar India where he averages in the 20s (note: he had 1 inning in Zimbabwe where he made 31). Kallis too has a fantastic record where he averages above 50 against everyone home and away (note: he had 3 innings in Bangladesh where he averaged 33).

All this is not to point out that Kallis hasn't played quality innings. But on the whole I'd argue much less than Ponting has against the best attacks, home and away.

When I was looking up their records I was very impressed by Kallis' 3rd/4th innings average. With a bit more scrutiny, however, I was a bit disappointed. Kallis has really played for the red ink there. He really piled on the runs in draws that were going nowhere or innings where S.Africa were obviously going to declare they were so ahead. I invite you to look at his 100s in draws and analyse them for yourself. It goes to show you that sometimes perceptions are correct (i.e. Kallis being seemingly selfish) and I get the impression of Kallis being a cricketer who certainly knew his numbers and played for them. I know innings where the likes of Ponting, Lara or Sachin once got to 100s and then let loose for the sake of their team whereas I can recall very few for Kallis.

On the whole, I like that Kallis wasn't battered in this poll; I think he deserves to be thought of alongside the best batsmen of his day. But he was not Ponting's equal, anymore than Barrington was Sobers' IMO- and I actually think the latter pair have more of a debate.
There are very few, if any, arguments for Dravid > Kallis.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Oops, Dravid shouldn't be in there. Although; don't think there's a lot in it TBF.
 

vcs

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Can you elaborate on your perception about Kallis playing for not outs more often? I thought he played a great match-saving innings at Melbourne once, and made some valuable runs when SA chased 400+ at Perth.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Look at the 3rd/4th innings and look at the numbers he has in draws. Look at his 100s ...they're almost all not-out scores. Then look at the scorecards. Mostly matches where a draw was obvious or a declaration imminent and Kallis is hanging on for the red ink.

Don't get me wrong; he easily has the numbers. It just strikes me in many of those situations a Ponting or a Sachin would push on faster if they could force a result.
 
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vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
out of his 3 100s in Sa 2 were in 1 match against pretorious,hall and a raw ntini.Best attack he faced in Sa was in austaralia's last series there...and he was a flop in that series.
Obviously you didn't click the link. His twin hundreds are there: against Pollock, Ntini, Nel, Kallis and Boje. He made a hundred as part of a team chasing down 330+ in the fourth innings, against the attack you describe. Not a great attack, still a very good and important innings.

Don't know if 35 is a flop, ftr.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Will never forget Ponting scoring twin tons in a test THREE times in one summer. Amazing. Including the twins in his 100th test, he has a long history of amazing innings on special occasions, until only very recently Kallis has managed a few, and thats debatable.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
S.Africa had the 2nd best home attack (after Aus) record since 2000. May have not been "great" but definitely very good. More to the point; Avada doesn't have a point. Ponting averaged 50 in 98 against Pollock and Donald in Aus.
 

vcs

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Look at the 3rd/4th innings and look at the numbers he has in draws. Look at his 100s ...they're almost all not-out scores. Then look at the scorecards. Mostly matches where a draw was obvious or a declaration imminent and Kallis is hanging on for the red ink.

Don't get me wrong; he easily has the numbers. It just strikes me in many of those situations a Ponting or a Sachin would push on faster if they could force a result.
So it's mostly your perception. Some would say Ponting has the liberty to go for it more, when he had the likes of Gilchrist to follow. I often got the impression Ponting would come in at effective 150/1 type situations in 3rd innings considering how often Australia took the 1st innings lead, or he would find himself not out chasing a <150 score on day 4. None of that is his fault though, and shouldn't detract from him.

Anyway, I don't put much stock on 2nd/4th innings averages - as long as Kallis has produced enough innings like the one he played yesterday, I couldn't care less whether his 2nd/4th innings average is 35 or 55. IMO, 2nd/4th innings averages are pretty over-rated stats when it comes to judging batsmen. It's only a concern in some special cases like Sehwag.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Maybe it is my perception. But IIRC there was an episode where Kallis was scoring so slowly his teammates had to up the ante and were getting caught off because of it. Isn't he also slow in ODIs? It's not like he has had mugs batting alongside him or a bad attack to complement him. I've watched him bat for years...I can't recall too many times he's lifted his scoring rate much at all. Always get the impression he'd rather stay not-out than lift his game to even maybe benefit his team 5%.

Heck, even in your recent draw with India...If he could have batted faster maybe Smith could have declared earlier?

I remember a stat where regardless at what score Ponting came in he batted the same exact way. I forget if I saw that on statsguru or on Ch.9.
 
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vcs

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Maybe it is my perception. But IIRC there was an episode where Kallis was scoring so slowly his teammates had to up the ante and were getting caught off because of it. Isn't he also slow in ODIs? It's not like he has had mugs batting alongside him or a bad attack to complement him. I've watched him bat for years...I can't recall too many times he's lifted his scoring rate much at all. Always get the impression he'd rather stay not-out than lift his game to even maybe benefit his team 5%.

Heck, even in your recent draw with India...If he could have batted faster maybe Smith could have declared earlier?

I remember a stat where regardless at what score Ponting came in he batted the same exact way. I forget if I saw that on statsguru or on Ch.9.
Haha, no. That is the worst possible example you could pick. SA were battling to save it from 64/4 and 130/6 FFS. Not to mention Harbhajan well nigh unplayable out of the rough, and a first home defeat to India staring them in the face. Plus an injury.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Will never forget Ponting scoring twin tons in a test THREE times in one summer. Amazing. Including the twins in his 100th test, he has a long history of amazing innings on special occasions, until only very recently Kallis has managed a few, and thats debatable.
His 100th test was such an awesome match. One of my favourites.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
You're right, it's not a good example. Still, you saw that from Boucher onwards plenty of runs scored and at a good rate. Kallis still as slow as molasses.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah, maybe. It just seems even more ridiculous than usual currently to suggest that Kallis doesn't score difficult or important runs and Ponting does.
I don't think anyone is saying Kallis has NEVER done. I just think Ponting is slightly better at it. Right now, Ponting is in a (perhaps terminal) slump and we have to wait and see if Kallis goes through something similar or not..



As a general rule though, I would like to know how people rate players. At what point of time do you feel, he has done well for "enough" years.. I reckon a form slump towards the end is just about inevitable for any player who plays on or is forced to play on for longer than he should have... I guess,as with most debates here, there is no clear right or wrong to it.
 

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