Kallis vs Ponting as test batsmen

[Top_Cat]

Fine (and I agree FWIW) but I don't know a single current international captain who would - and I was asked why S/R matters - this is why.


You have an outsized effect compared to your stats. Even though everyone logically knows it's unlikely, it looms in your head and makes you do things you wouldn't do if Dravid (an overall better player) was opening. You don't want to have to start to take off your fast bowler after three overs. You don't want to have to start taking slips out when the score is 50 off 5. Many times, even if he gets out, the damage is already done in terms of body language, and it lasts the whole innings.

I see times where Sehwag comes and scores at 6 runs an over and the fielders are pushed back and the bowlers are taken off. A new batsman comes in and is scoring at 2 rpo but the body language is still crap and the field is nowhere near as aggressive it would have been had it been the same score with a different batsman.

You've pretty much described the reason why Adam Gilchrist was highly rated by so many players despite averaging around 30 in ODI's. Even if he didn't personally get 50 or 100, the effect of him going for 8+/over for even the first few overs was jolting. And if he did get 50 or 100, the oppo were in a world of hurt.

 

[Jono]

That's because Smith is a *****.

I'd have seriously considered declaring at about 290.

You have Dale Steyn and Morne Morkel, with a brand new ball and a wearing pitch. Back them to take early wickets and put India massively on the back foot overnight.

True but irrelevant.

Despite Sehwag playing poorly most of the series, having a poor record in SA and in 2nd innings, he was a HUGE factor in Smith not declaring (along with him being downright dire).

 

[akilana]

Fine (and I agree FWIW) but I don't know a single current international captain who would - and I was asked why S/R matters - this is why.


You have an outsized effect compared to your stats. Even though everyone logically knows it's unlikely, it looms in your head and makes you do things you wouldn't do if Dravid (an overall better player) was opening. You don't want to have to start to take off your fast bowler after three overs. You don't want to have to start taking slips out when the score is 50 off 5. Many times, even if he gets out, the damage is already done in terms of body language, and it lasts the whole innings.

I see times where Sehwag comes and scores at 6 runs an over and the fielders are pushed back and the bowlers are taken off. A new batsman comes in and is scoring at 2 rpo but the body language is still crap and the field is nowhere near as aggressive it would have been had it been the same score with a different batsman.

I agree there are days when SR becomes a big factor but it didn't become a factor till the match reached its 4th innings. Was SR a factor when Kallis walked back to the pavillion after his hundred? Was it a factor when Sachin was done with his 51st hundred? Kallis double ton was scored at a faster rate(70) than his two hundreds in this match(55 and 45) and I don't think many would argue that these two were in anyway inferior to the double ton. Did Sachin's hundred at the SR of 45 ruin his team's chances of putting his team in a position to force a win?

You're using one off player like Sehwag as your example which is unfair. Sachin scores at a similar rate to Ponting but the declaration was delayed because of Sehwag, not Sachin and it would not have been delayed if Ponting was in Sehwag's place. The difference in SR between Ponting and Kallis's is 15. To make it simple, Ponting is closer to Kallis than Sehwag SR-wise.

 

[silentstriker]

You've pretty much described the reason why Adam Gilchrist was highly rated by so many players despite averaging around 30 in ODI's. Even if he didn't personally get 50 or 100, the effect of him going for 8+/over for even the first few overs was jolting. And if he did get 50 or 100, the oppo were in a world of hurt.

Yup. And that's why Gilly would open along with SRT in my all time XI.

Sehwah right now is having an effect purely on reputation - Imran Khan was talking about how Viv had the same effect on the fielding team...the fact that he could completely dominate you changed the gameplan for the opposition - even if he actually ended up having no effect. Chappelli was talking about it the other day about the importance of strike rates. Sometimes he makes me cringe, but on this he was spot on.

So while I respect Kallis and Dravids as greats who would make the all time sides of their countries, I would not have either in the absolute top echelon of batsmen (e.g top ten) which are candidates for an all time XI.

Dominance ends careers, it takes demoralizes bowlers, changes game plans, and completely puts the other team under pressure within five-ten overs. Ponting could and did do that. SRT and Lara did. Gilchrist and Sehwag certainly did. Kallis and Dravid - rarely so.

And I've changed my mind on this fairly recently - after seeing with my own eyes the effect that Sehwag has had on the other team. Even when out of form, even before the game, and certainly when he started to go off and opposition captain has a 'SOMEONE HELP ME' face about eight overs into a Test match in the first morning.

What the older guys have been saying about Viv has started making a lot more sense .

 

[silentstriker]

You're using one off player like Sehwag as your example which is unfair.

The question was asked why S/R matters. It's a continuum. There is no 'magic' threshold. The higher the better.

 

[Furball]

True but irrelevant.

Despite Sehwag playing poorly most of the series, having a poor record in SA and in 2nd innings, he was a HUGE factor in Smith not declaring (along with him being downright dire).

I'm aware of the Sehwag factor. Smith's fear of that is the main reason I'm calling him a *****.

 

[Ruckus]

I think all of these batsmen; Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Waugh, Kallis, Dravid etc. etc. are in roughly the same league. Even though Tendulkar is the clear favourite amongst fans, I really don't think he is significantly better than any of the others. In modern cricket there is yet to be a batsmen who really stands out from the crowd imo - one everyone automatically says "yep, he is better than all of the rest". Do people see Tendulkar as a Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer etc.?

 

[akilana]

i think all of these batsmen; tendulkar, lara, ponting, waugh, kallis, dravid etc. Etc. Are in roughly the same league. Even though tendulkar is the clear favourite amongst fans, i really don't think he is significantly better than any of the others. In modern cricket there is yet to be a batsmen who really stands out from the crowd imo - one everyone automatically says "yep, he is better than all of the rest". Do people see tendulkar as a michael jordan, tiger woods, roger federer etc.?

+1

 

[The Sean]

I think all of these batsmen; Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Waugh, Kallis, Dravid etc. etc. are in roughly the same league. Even though Tendulkar is the clear favourite amongst fans, I really don't think he is significantly better than any of the others. In modern cricket there is yet to be a batsmen who really stands out from the crowd imo - one everyone automatically says "yep, he is better than all of the rest". Do people see Tendulkar as a Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer etc.?

Exactly. And this is where you raise all sorts of problems by saying that Tendulkar is better than Bradman - because by doing that it means that you're saying Lara is also as good or better than Bradman, that Ponting/Kallis/Dravid are all at least in the same class as him, and that all of them are considerably better than Hobbs, Hammond, Headley or Sutcliffe.

Which is bollocks, just quietly.

 

[Ruckus]

Yeah very true, it's just a ludicrous argument whichever angle you try and look at it from.

 

[silentstriker]

Exactly. And this is where you raise all sorts of problems by saying that Tendulkar is better than Bradman.

How many are saying that?

 

[bagapath]

Exactly. And this is where you raise all sorts of problems by saying that Tendulkar is better than Bradman - because by doing that it means that you're saying Lara is also as good or better than Bradman, that Ponting/Kallis/Dravid are all at least in the same class as him, and that all of them are considerably better than Hobbs, Hammond, Headley or Sutcliffe.

Which is bollocks, just quietly.

some idiots in indian media have been saying that, i know. and i have banned them from my tv for life. but if anyone is saying that on this forum the mods should hand them a one week ban.

sachin is an awesome awesome cricketer. it is possible to build a case for him to call him a top 5 cricketer of all time, and he is definitely in the top 10. but that is it. there is no way he is better than bradman and sobers. and in my books he is not better than richards, hobbs and warne either. kallis is possibly a top 10 all time great too. ponting should be in the top 25. but purely as batsmen i still maintain....

lara > tendulkar > ponting > waugh > dravid > sehwag > kallis

they all are probably separated by miniscule points, though

 

[M0rphin3]

Kallis>Daylight>Bradman>Sachin>Ponting>Jono

IMO

 

[kingkallis]

some idiots in indian media have been saying that, i know. and i have banned them from my tv for life. but if anyone is saying that on this forum the mods should hand them a one week ban.

sachin is an awesome awesome cricketer. it is possible to build a case for him to call him a top 5 cricketer of all time, and he is definitely in the top 10. but that is it. there is no way he is better than bradman and sobers. and in my books he is not better than richards, hobbs and warne either. kallis is possibly a top 10 all time great too. ponting should be in the top 25. but purely as batsmen i still maintain....

lara > tendulkar > ponting > waugh > dravid > sehwag > kallis

they all are probably separated by miniscule points, though

I am glad I dont take you seriously

 

[bagapath]

I am glad I dont take you seriously

even i dont take myself seriously, dude. cheers.

 

[Zinzan]

3 years ago, I'd have said Ponting, but Kallis has since overtaken him

 

[Zinzan]

I think all of these batsmen; Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Waugh, Kallis, Dravid etc. etc. are in roughly the same league. Even though Tendulkar is the clear favourite amongst fans, I really don't think he is significantly better than any of the others. In modern cricket there is yet to be a batsmen who really stands out from the crowd imo - one everyone automatically says "yep, he is better than all of the rest". Do people see Tendulkar as a Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer etc.?

^ Post of the year (albeit 6 days), I think it's also that Tendulkar is such a great role-model & human-being in general that adds to the mystique amongst Indian fans & that's understandable, but you're absolutely right in saying there's actually nothing that makes him 'categorically' any better than a half-dozen other ATG batsman (unless one puts a massive weighting on longevity - which I don't) & everyone knows 'The Don' is the 'Michael Jordan' of cricket & more convincingly so than Jordan tbh.

 

[Zinzan]

As John Wright said a couple of years ago, when you get to the level of the Ponting's, Kallis', Tendulkar's & Lara's, it purely comes down to personal preference.

 

[bagapath]

As John Wright said a couple of years ago, when you get to the level of the Ponting's, Kallis', Tendulkar's & Lara's, it purely comes down to personal preference.

yup. that sounds right. even ian chappell said he prefers lara in his all time xi only because he thought it would be a good idea to have a left hander. other than that there is nothing that separates tendulkar from lara he admits.

it must be true for any bunch of great batsmen playing together in the same era. i like aggression and style. so if ability and temperament are similar i usually prefer the better looking batsman. thats why kallis and dravid rank lower than lara and tendulkar and ponting on my list. doesnt mean i dont understand their greatness.

 

[Jono]

As John Wright said a couple of years ago, when you get to the level of the Ponting's, Kallis', Tendulkar's & Lara's, it purely comes down to personal preference.

Haha yep. Or whoever is in form.