*Official* India in South Africa

[Rant0r]

Yeah sure, and that's why Kallis is an all-time great batsman.

But his average against Australia, whether it be all together, and just at home and just away, is so far below what Sachin averages, whether it be at home, or away, or overall, that there is something to it.

Sachin was obviously better vs. Warne, but he's also just a better player of pace bowling.

To be fair it's hard to compare anyone to what Sachin does

 

[Rant0r]

Well yes, but when all South African batsmen are averaging between 35 and 47, it suggests that run scoring, even for home batsmen, is more difficult in South Africa, so for one guy to average over 58 in the same conditions is pretty special.

Ponting and Tendulkar have stellar home records as well, but neither of them stands above their team mates as much as Kallis does in that regard.

Or, the fact that his team mates overall records are also a lot lower than his

 

[ankitj]

Anyone else think South Africa actually does have an equal or better batting line up than India?

Based on current form

Smith = Sehwag
Peterson < Gambhir
Amla > Dravid
Kallis = Tendulkar
Devilliers > Laxman
Prince > Raina
Boucher < Dhoni

Evidence for this should not be found in this series' performances. One line-up faces Styen/Morkel, other Sreesanth/Ishant.

 

[Jono]

Yeah but tbh there won't be many batsmen that will be able to experience 21 years of international cricket.

Yeah but I'm not sure what that has to do with this argument. In fact, it just supports my argument if anything.

GingerFurball was suggesting that Kallis' record at home makes him better vs. Sachin in SA conditions. But it's an unfair comparison. Sachin has only faced SA's bowling lineup, Kallis never has. When he's come up against a similar fast bowling lineup in SA, i.e. Australia's, he's been mediocre to poor, averaging 35.

That puts Sachin's average of "only" 40 against Donald, Pollock, Steyn, Morkel etc. into perspective.

To be fair it's hard to compare anyone to what Sachin does

But this wasn't a dig the boot into Kallis argument. It all started with comparing Sachin vs. Kallis in SA.

I think people have oversimplified it, and when you actually look at their records, and make sensible assumptions, you can argue Sachin is equal to or better than Kallis in SA conditions.

Graeme Smith, AB Devilliers, Darryl Cullinan etc. aren't relevant to Sachin vs. Kallis. Only to Kallis' achievements overall, which I've never denied are awesome.

 

[Mike5181]

Evidence for this should not be found in this series' performances. One line-up faces Styen/Morkel, other Sreesanth/Ishant.

Not talking about this particular series. Just in general.

 

[vcs]

Again, looking at India's record vs. SA over the years, it's obvious why you'd prefer most SA players over their Indian counterparts. By the same token, if you were to construct a mixed SA-India team to take on Australia, you'd take most Indians over their SA counterparts.

 

[kingpin]

At the start of series i may even settle to 3-0 trashing of INDIA...but reading some of the comments here.......no matter what INDIA must win it here...its now or never for INDIA

 

[Mike5181]

Again, looking at India's record vs. SA over the years, it's obvious why you'd prefer most SA players over their Indian counterparts. By the same token, if you were to construct a mixed SA-India team to take on Australia, you'd take most Indians over their SA counterparts.

Yeah, thats a fair call. The likes of Laxman and co seem to stand up against Australia.

 

[Furball]

Yeah but I'm not sure what that has to do with this argument. In fact, it just supports my argument if anything.

GingerFurball was suggesting that Kallis' record at home makes him better vs. Sachin in SA conditions. But it's an unfair comparison. Sachin has only faced SA's bowling lineup, Kallis never has. When he's come up against a similar fast bowling lineup in SA, i.e. Australia's, he's been mediocre to poor, averaging 35.

That puts Sachin's average of "only" 40 against Donald, Pollock, Steyn, Morkel etc. into perspective.


But this wasn't a dig the boot into Kallis argument. It all started with comparing Sachin vs. Kallis in SA.

I think people have oversimplified it, and when you actually look at their records, and make sensible assumptions, you can argue Sachin is equal to or better than Kallis in SA conditions.

Graeme Smith, AB Devilliers, Darryl Cullinan etc. aren't relevant to Sachin vs. Kallis. Only to Kallis' achievements overall, which I've never denied are awesome.

Tbh, my argument was that given his home record, the first batsman I'd have in my side if we were playing a Test in SA would be Kallis.

2nd on the teamsheet would be Ricky Ponting.

 

[Migara]

Kallis' average against SL was poor (35). But he had to take on Murali without any support other than Klusener and de Villiers later.

 

[M0rphin3]

AWTA with whatever Joni says

 

[vcs]

Biggest negative from this Test.

MS Dhoni has come down hard on his bowlers after India started yet another tour with a demoralising defeat. "One of the things was we still couldn't get them all out," Dhoni said. "Although we all said the wicket was different to first day, but you have bowled on flatter tracks and you're still expected to get the sides out, so that's an area of concern because to win a Test you have to get 20 wickets."

It was not just the failure to bowl South Africa out that ought to concern India. They conceded 225 runs in one session on the third day, which hastened the declaration from South Africa. The extra time South Africa gained proved to be a big factor in India's fight for a draw. "You're supposed to either take wickets or not let the opposition score at five runs an over in a Test match," Dhoni said. "The conditions are difficult out here, it's not like in India where it's turning and the ball doesn't come on. So you can tie the batsmen down and not let them score at a brisk pace. But over here scoring is quite easy, in the sense once you're set, the ball comes on nicely and you can score on both sides of the wicket. So that's also an area of concern. Even our scoring-rate, despite us losing wickets, was quite good. So that means, the only way out is to take wickets.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-india-2010/content/current/story/493588.htm

Their run-rate really killed us and shows up our bowling in a very poor light, with or without Zaheer.

 

[Blaze 18]

Well yes, but when all South African batsmen are averaging between 35 and 47, it suggests that run scoring, even for home batsmen, is more difficult in South Africa, so for one guy to average over 58 in the same conditions is pretty special.

Ponting and Tendulkar have stellar home records as well, but neither of them stands above their team mates as much as Kallis does in that regard.

Does this work in reverse when we are comparing say, Zaheer Khan to James Anderson ?

I ask because of this :

Ah, that old argument.

Zaheer is Indian, he should be good at bowling in the subcontinent. He doesn't get extra points for doing that.

 

[Bun]

Does this work in reverse when we are comparing say, Zaheer Khan to James Anderson ?

I ask because of this :

Haha pwned

 

[weldone]

Biggest negative from this Test.



http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-india-2010/content/current/story/493588.htm

Their run-rate really killed us and shows up our bowling in a very poor light, with or without Zaheer.

Really good to see Dhoni come up with some comments criticizing his bowlers. He was always the one defending his bowlers, and putting the blame on the batsmen for every failure his team had. Good that he has the realization now. Also good to see that a failure in one inning (in about 10 test matches or so) doesn't draw too much undue criticism to the batting lineup.

 

[honestbharani]

Well yes, but when all South African batsmen are averaging between 35 and 47, it suggests that run scoring, even for home batsmen, is more difficult in South Africa, so for one guy to average over 58 in the same conditions is pretty special.

Ponting and Tendulkar have stellar home records as well, but neither of them stands above their team mates as much as Kallis does in that regard.

Are you actually saying it is Sachin or Ponting's fault that they had better batting support at home, at least?

 

[Furball]

Does this work in reverse when we are comparing say, Zaheer Khan to James Anderson ?

I ask because of this :

It would work if Zaheer averaged 19 in India when no other bowler could average under 30.

 

[Furball]

Are you actually saying it is Sachin or Ponting's fault that they had better batting support at home, at least?

No, I'm saying that Sachin and Ponting's excellent home records don't stand out as much as Kallis' because they're not unique in averaging in the high 50s at home.

 

[Bun]

It would work if Zaheer averaged 19 in India when no other bowler could average under 30.

India don't play Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and of late West Indies etc at home.

 

[honestbharani]

No, I'm saying that Sachin and Ponting's excellent home records don't stand out as much as Kallis' because they're not unique in averaging in the high 50s at home.

It is only unique because his other batsmen have not been to the same standards as it is for Sachin or Ponting. Going by that criteria, shouldn't Lara be on some other level? And Andy Flower, btw? I am pretty sure he averages insanely higher than his counterparts at home.. Then Andy Flower > Kallis... And Flower never kept wickets only when it suited him either..