***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[Ikki]

Sigh. Does every thread have to go down this path? Cut out the insults please and for once let’s see if can avoid a closure of thread where Ponting/Tendulkar are being discussed.

I wish I didn't have to respond to every dumb/incorrect thing attributed to me but it's in my nature. Should I report the post? I dunno.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Cricket is all about scoring runs and taking wickets.the rate at which u do them matters.in odis sr for batsmen is very impt.u lack elementary logic.

 

[Fusion]

I wish I didn't have to respond to every dumb/incorrect thing attributed to me but it's in my nature. Should I report the post? I dunno.

That's right. Report a post if you consider it offensive and let the Mods deal with it. Trust me, we look over and discuss every reported post. It is not acceptable at any point to respond to a post/poster with insults.

 

[Fusion]

I'm going to delete any posts that contain insults from this point on. Also, be aware that we will discuss further actions against the offending poster.

 

[Ikki]

IMO the main point is that the pitches aren't best suited to the batsman in question.

But that's only half the equation. At an opponent's home you are facing bowlers who are familiar to the conditions - not even including fan support, etc.

Theoretically a batsman's home conditions could be less conducive to run scoring than away conditions (S.Africa vs India for example). It doesn't mean the home conditions are now actually his away conditions.

To each his own, but the difference between 80 and 85 over an entire career is enough for me to distinguish the quality of the batsman.

It's not really like that IMO. If you were talking about average...yes. But this is SR. The difference between Tendulkar scoring 1 more run 2 balls faster than Ponting (which is what it is on average) is rarely ever going to be a factor in a match. He neither scores fast enough to affect the match more than Ponting nor does he score much more than Ponting to affect it much differently.

 

[Checkmate]

But that's only half the equation. At an opponent's home you are facing bowlers who are familiar to the conditions - not even including fan support, etc.

Consider the recent neutral test series in England. Pakistan's bowlers used the conditions just as well as England bowlers would have, and it is likely that Australia would have batted just as badly against England, primarily because the Aus batsmen weren't used the pitches/conditions. If the unfamiliarity of pitches is half the equation, the other half would be a host of fluctuating variables.

It's not really like that IMO. If you were talking about average...yes. But this is SR. The difference between Tendulkar scoring 1 more run 2 balls faster than Ponting (which is what it is on average) is rarely ever going to be a factor in a match. He neither scores fast enough to affect the match more than Ponting nor does he score much more than Ponting to affect it much differently.

The difference is that Tendulkar is more likely to destroy the opposition bowlers than Ponting. Not by much of course, just enough.

 

[Ikki]

Consider the recent neutral test series in England. Pakistan's bowlers used the conditions just as well as England bowlers would have, and it is likely that Australia would have batted just as badly against England, primarily because the Aus batsmen weren't used the pitches/conditions. If the unfamiliarity of pitches is half the equation, the other half would be a host of fluctuating variables.

Well, that's true. But then you have to get into a series by series analysis of who took advantage of what conditions. That seems tedious. It's far more easier just assuming the home team is the more suited to their conditions than the opposition - that's probably more or less true anyway; whilst in neutral matches you'd have to make an argument for each venue favouring which team.

The difference is that Tendulkar is more likely to destroy the opposition bowlers than Ponting. Not by much of course, just enough.

But their averages mean the likelihood of Tendulkar destroying an attack is practically the same as Ponting's. The extent of which, although favours Tendulkar; is still minute.

With their aforementioned SRs:

If Tendulkar scores 100 runs, he'll do so off 116 balls.
If Ponting scores 100 runs, he'll do so off 123 balls.

The likelihood of runs scored is determined by average - and we know that it's practically neck and neck there. SR is how many runs they'll score for every 100 balls they face. It's not going to determine the likelihood of destruction, just the extent.

It's like saying when Afridi gets going ; he is more likely to destroy them more than Tendulkar will (facing many balls/SR). However, the likelihood of him getting going is much less than Tendulkar's (difference between their averages).

I think your point is more valid with reference to 100s/per inning or something which Tendulkar is ahead by a way.

 

[Ikki]

ftr I do think Ikki takes it overboard

For my own interest; what do you think I am taking overboard?

 

[morgieb]

For my own interest; what do you think I am taking overboard?

Believe that in some cases you give a little too much weight on the WC. Like Warne > Murali in ODI's and all that. Yes it is the most important game in the format, but still.....

Also, was Bevan that good in WC anyway? I remember him having an impact in the South Africa semi-final and the 2 Port Elizabeth games, but still....2 of those weren't that big games - given how well Australia was going, they might have won the WC without him anyway.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Posts moved into this thread.

 

[Furball]

It's not really like that IMO. If you were talking about average...yes. But this is SR. The difference between Tendulkar scoring 1 more run 2 balls faster than Ponting (which is what it is on average) is rarely ever going to be a factor in a match. He neither scores fast enough to affect the match more than Ponting nor does he score much more than Ponting to affect it much differently.

Tendulkar opening: 319 innings, 14,482 runs @ 48.92, SR 88.19
Ponting at 3: 312 innings, 12,166 runs @ 43.14, SR 81.04

I'd say statistically, using their best positions, the difference between them is pretty significant.

 

[Athlai]

No point in just looking at the strike rate like that. A guy may strike every single innings at 80 or he may play an anchor role at times and at other times strike at a scorching 120-140. Look a bit deeper into the strike rate figures IMO.

Tendulkar is an incredibly versatile batsman and thats why he has always been top dog for me.

In innings where they have scored 50+ runs
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

And a quick look at career innings

Ponting over his career has an innings with a SR of over 100 around 1 in 8 of his matches.

Tendulkar over his is close to 1/4 of his innings going a run a ball or better.

 

[Checkmate]

Well, that's true. But then you have to get into a series by series analysis of who took advantage of what conditions. That seems tedious. It's far more easier just assuming the home team is the more suited to their conditions than the opposition - that's probably more or less true anyway; whilst in neutral matches you'd have to make an argument for each venue favouring which team.

What if the visitors are simply the better team? The difference is substantial when Tendulkar plays the likes of Mcgrath and Fleming in India while Ponting plays Agarkar and Irfan Pathan also in India. There are simply too many variables to just assume that the home team bowlers are better. The only quantifiable difference is that one is a home pitch and the other is an away-from-home pitch. Neutral and away venues should count the same.

But their averages mean the likelihood of Tendulkar destroying an attack is practically the same as Ponting's. The extent of which, although favours Tendulkar; is still minute.

With their aforementioned SRs:

If Tendulkar scores 100 runs, he'll do so off 116 balls.
If Ponting scores 100 runs, he'll do so off 123 balls.

The likelihood of runs scored is determined by average - and we know that it's practically neck and neck there. SR is how many runs they'll score for every 100 balls they face. It's not going to determine the likelihood of destruction, just the extent.

It's like saying when Afridi gets going ; he is more likely to destroy them more than Tendulkar will (facing many balls/SR). However, the likelihood of him getting going is much less than Tendulkar's (difference between their averages).

I think your point is more valid with reference to 100s/per inning or something which Tendulkar is ahead by a way.

By "destruction" I mean a Gilchrist/Jayasuriya type knock. Let's define it as a knock of SR > 100. Tendulkar is much more likely to dominate the bowlers and thus destroy them than Ponting

Athlai makes this point pretty well.

 

[bagapath]

I wonder what the excuse will be if in 2011 you still don't win the WC. You have one of the best ODI sides (as you did in 2007 and 2003) so I wonder what the reason will be then.

there should not be any excuses. winning a WC is very important. but, since it is a team effort thing one cant judge how good a player is by simply counting WC wins. if that were the case moody > imran and kapil and akram.

giving excuses like "warne had to bowl with a cake of soap" in '96 final is silly. one has to perform well in all circumstances. if every element is perfect then i would be a great cricketer too. cant keep spinning excuses for failures. warne screwed up on that day. like sachin did in '03 final. end of story

Maybe the Indians don't care about the WC and would rather win glorified exhibition matches.

just like the aussies dont care about winning in india. they used to have a leg spinner who could bowl out other teams but get slaughtered by india. and a no.3 batsman whose ****y swagger would be reduced to ****ty shivers in india. may be they would rather beat teams who cant play leg spin or who didnt have an turbaned right arm off spinner.

 

[Ruckus]

With Ponting's bad run seemingly never going to end, the scales are even more firmly leaning towards Tendulkar. It's starting to get to the point now, where unless Ponting does some quite extraordinary, the battle is over imo.

 

[bagapath]

With Ponting's bad run seemingly never going to end, the scales are even more firmly leaning towards Tendulkar. It's starting to get to the point now, where unless Ponting does some quite extraordinary, the battle is over imo.

dude.... the battle got over a few months back... ponting's place is confirmed for posteriety with all time greats like miandad, border, compton, weekes, g.chappell and gavaskar.

sachin is sitting in the next table with v.richards, lara, sobers, hutton, headley, hobbs and hammond.

 

[Athlai]

G Chappell should be on the highest level.

 

[bagapath]

G Chappell should be on the highest level.

may be. as long as you dont want to upgrade ponting we are friends.

 

[Athlai]

Chappell > Border + S Waugh > Ponting

 

[bagapath]

Chappell > Border + S Waugh > Ponting

i like you more than ever