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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

vcs

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Well, I think tooextracool meant that his legacy as a cricketer is tarnished by those allegations, if true. Like Azhar and Cronje. They won't feature in too many "favourite player" lists. I think that's fair enough.

Altaican, didn't NZ have a decent batting lineup at the time with Crowe etc.? I do agree his record is a bit NZ-heavy though. He really feasted on them.
 

bagapath

International Captain
................. average less than 25 and you deserve to be considered up there with the very best ..........
................. Ambrose, Marshall, McGrath, Donald, etc...........reckon all those blokes should be just put into one big group labelled '****ing Awesome' because any statistical difference are likely to be noise and other facets are more about personal taste than anything.
totally AWTA
 

Migara

International Coach
Akram had a health issue IMO. He was a diabetic and that hindred him from bowling long spells. (Dehydration takes your blood glucose control for a six)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Akram had a health issue IMO. He was a diabetic and that hindred him from bowling long spells. (Dehydration takes your blood glucose control for a six)
Plus ridiculous amount of ODIs, half of them in the heat of Pakistan, India and Sharjah where the phool kumaris of Australia and England wont last one summer.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Akram had a health issue IMO. He was a diabetic and that hindred him from bowling long spells. (Dehydration takes your blood glucose control for a six)
oh yes he did have to fight that all the time. and it makes his long and super successful career even more awesome. that man had great style, panache, big match temperament, intelligence and loads of talent. just wish his name weren't mentioned in the match fixing scandal though.... a worthy ATG otherwise.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Well, I think tooextracool meant that his legacy as a cricketer is tarnished by those allegations, if true. Like Azhar and Cronje. They won't feature in too many "favourite player" lists. I think that's fair enough.

Altaican, didn't NZ have a decent batting lineup at the time with Crowe etc.? I do agree his record is a bit NZ-heavy though. He really feasted on them.
Still made it to the ESPN All Time list with all the controversy.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Altaican, didn't NZ have a decent batting lineup at the time with Crowe etc.? I do agree his record is a bit NZ-heavy though. He really feasted on them.
Isn't Warne's record a little England heavy too??? And NZ until the mid 90s was a decent team (until at least Martin Crowe was there IIRC).
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Well, I think tooextracool meant that his legacy as a cricketer is tarnished by those allegations, if true. Like Azhar and Cronje. They won't feature in too many "favourite player" lists. I think that's fair enough.

Altaican, didn't NZ have a decent batting lineup at the time with Crowe etc.? I do agree his record is a bit NZ-heavy though. He really feasted on them.
Oh, I didn't mean to put down Waqar's achievements. What he achieved during that time was phenomenal against any team. If Aus and SA teams (especially Aus) had also been demolished by him throughout a series in a similar manner, I feel, his achievements would have been noticed more clearly. Just talking about majority of the world taking notice of his accomplishments, rather than the accomplishments themselves, that is all. Great performances against India would have helped immensely too because of sheer media power in India.

Martin Crowe was very good but I don't think one can compare NZ batting line-up (in Tests) of that time with that of Aus or even India.
 

vcs

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Isn't Warne's record a little England heavy too??? And NZ until the mid 90s was a decent team (until at least Martin Crowe was there IIRC).
Yeah absolutely. But since it's the Ashes, traditional rivalry etc. it's always going to be looked on favourably for Warne. That's just the way things are.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Even during Waqar's initial years when he had that insanely high WPM, his performance in Australia was poor.
Waqar faced Australia once during his peak years(90 -95), he averaged 25.8 and took 10 wickets in 2 matches and had a SR of 44.2. Dunno how it is poor by any measure.

During his peak, The best batting lineup in the world was the West Indies. He played six games against them, took 35 wickets against them(about 6 wpm), averaged 19.42 and struck @ 32.2.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Sorry, Misread that post. He did not face Oz in Oz during his peak. The time he faced 'em in Pak, He did extremely well.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Even during Waqar's initial years when he had that insanely high WPM, his performance in Australia was poor.
Waqar faced Australia once during his peak years(90 -95), he averaged 25.8 and took 10 wickets in 2 matches and had a SR of 44.2. Dunno how it is poor by any measure.

During his peak, The best batting lineup in the world was the West Indies. He played six games against them, took 35 wickets against them(about 6 wpm), averaged 19.42 and struck @ 32.2.
Sorry, Misread that post. He did not face Oz in Oz during his peak. The time he faced 'em in Pak, He did extremely well.
yeah he faced Oz in Australia after he came back from injury. Didn't do as well in that series.

But that series in Pakistan where he averages 25.8 at SR of 44.2 isn't really bad by most standards. Considering that the Aussie batting was quite decent and the pitches were quite good for batting. It was also the series that Pak chased their only 300+ 4th innings total.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
If average-poor performances over a decent enough sample size(8+ matches) against a nation is to be held against bowlers with ATG stats, then I wonder why Ambrose's bowling against India is never mentioned against him.

While I appreciate the difference in strength of opposition, Waqar, in his peak was awesome against Australia and even overall, was a serviceable bowler taking 30 wickets @ 33.8 at a wpm of 2.5 and a SR of 62.7

Ambrose on the other hand took 15 wickets against India @ 38.26 at a wpm of 1.67 and a SR of 99.4!
 

smash84

The Tiger King
If average-poor performances over a decent enough sample size(8+ matches) against a nation is to be held against bowlers with ATG stats, then I wonder why Ambrose's bowling against India is never mentioned against him.

While I appreciate the difference in strength of opposition, Waqar, in his peak was awesome against Australia and even overall, was a serviceable bowler taking 30 wickets @ 33.8 at a wpm of 2.5 and a SR of 62.7

Ambrose on the other hand took 15 wickets against India @ 38.26 at a wpm of 1.67 and a SR of 99.4!
Ouch......that SR hurts. What must Ambrose's record be if we were to take out these 9 or so matches against India???? His SR would probably go up a few and average even further down. Didn't know Ambrose was so toothless against the Indians.
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Even during Waqar's initial years when he had that insanely high WPM, his performance in Australia was poor.
Waqar faced Australia once during his peak years(90 -95), he averaged 25.8 and took 10 wickets in 2 matches and had a SR of 44.2. Dunno how it is poor by any measure.

During his peak, The best batting lineup in the world was the West Indies. He played six games against them, took 35 wickets against them(about 6 wpm), averaged 19.42 and struck @ 32.2.
2 Matches is too small a sample to decide one way or the other. Waqar never had a 5 WI against Aus (the best team during his era) in his career. Never did particularly well in Aus. IMO, those are pretty big holes if you expect his name to be taken in the same breath as Marshall's. Once again, not intending to diss Waqar's achievements here. Just saying that he would have been more "popular" as an ATG if he had a series against Aus or even India (especially away from home) like how he had against other teams like NZ or Windies in 90-91.

He is still an ATG fast bowler. Not denying that at all. But these are very valid reasons why his name does not come up like Malcolm Marshall.

After having watched both Windies and Aussie batting line-ups (to which Waqar bowled), I would say that Aussies were the better batting line-up. Windies were great, but just like Indians they were full of flair and very unpredictable (especially in foreign conditions). And in 90-91 series most of their batsmen were past their prime or yet to reach it (Lara made his debut in the final Test). Let us not jump between the extremes here, I am NOT saying Windies line-ups were bad, all I am saying is Aussie line-up of 94-95 were much more dependable under tough conditions.

Even a direct man-for-man comparison (given how good each man was at that point in time -- not overall as a career) would work favorably for Australia. Most of the Aussie batsmen including Taylor, Slater, Waugh brothers and Healy were in their prime and pretty battle-hardened in 94-95. Boon was still very dependable. This was pretty much the exact team that wrested the World Test Champion title from Windies 6 months later. Despite the fact that Windies were on their way down, it was a huge achievement. One can never get the sense of it, looking back at the socrecards. Windies were never beaten in a Test series (home or away) for 15 years! You should have actually seen that series live to get a sense of how strong that Aussie team was. That Aussie team was an extremely good team in every sense. Extremely tough mentally. No wonder they dominated for so long.

IMO, Aussie team of 94-95 was the best batting line-up that Waqar bowled to, in his peak. Windies in 92-93 series come a close second.

Just to give you a comparison Windies never crossed 300 in their away series (90-91) against Pak in any of their 5 completed innings, while Aus (in 94-95) failed to cross 300 only once in their completed innings.

TBH, stats really don't give a sense of how tough that Aussie batting line-up was. You should have actually watched some of their matches against hostile bowling.
 
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Top_Cat

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Smidge harsh, Waqar was coming back from a long lay-off due to injury before that series against Australia.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Just to give you a comparison Windies never crossed 300 in their away series (90-91) against Pak in any of their 5 completed innings, while Aus (in 94-95) failed to cross 300 only once in their completed innings.
That might also be because the Pakistan team at that time was fantastically led by Imran. I am sure he was not a great bowling force himself but he did use Wasim and Waqar and even Qadir and Mushtaq to great effect.

And Imran was known to give no quarters to any of the West Indies sides. In fact in 90-91 WI were the best side in the world and not Australia IIRC.

Smidge harsh, Waqar was coming back from a long lay-off due to injury before that series against Australia.
Exactly and it was another back injury IIRC.
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
That might also be because the Pakistan team at that time was fantastically led by Imran. I am sure he was not a great bowling force himself but he did use Wasim and Waqar and even Qadir and Mushtaq to great effect.

And Imran was known to give no quarters to any of the West Indies sides. In fact in 90-91 WI were the best side in the world and not Australia IIRC.



Exactly and it was another back injury IIRC.
Not denying that Windies in 90-91 were the best team (mainly because of their phenomenal fast bowling). But I am comparing Aus batting line-up in 94-95 with Windies batting line-up in 90-91 (minus Richards - who did not make that tour). Greenidge (and Haynes) was clearly at the end of his career. Lara just made his debut. IMO, Aussie line-up in 94-95 was significantly better as the nucleus of the team was in it's peak in age and in experience.
 

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