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Is Viv Richards an Overrated Test Batsman?

hallmitchell

School Boy/Girl Captain
Let's take into some things into account. He played in an era of fantastic bowlers and a bit of hometown umpiring. Who was around? DK. Lillee. The greatest pace bowler of all time. Jeff Thomson. Fastest bowler of all time. Botham, Kapil Dev, Imran Khan, Richard Hadlee etc.
Plus wickets weren't this no grass garbage you see today.

I've never seen one batsmen scare bowlers like he did.

Test record - not over rated at all. I saw him hit a double century in Melbourne in 1984 on TV. Great innings.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I have got one word to say to Viv:

SEHWAG!

He is going to take that "Aggressor" title off you.
No. Not a chance.

Viv Richards is head and shoulders the most intimidating batsman I have ever seen.

Moreover, he was brilliant, utterly brilliant. The bloke was a genius. What a player he was. In no way is he over-rated IMHO.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Agree with this, except the last line. His stats dont include the match winning qualities he had.

Agree with those that say Lara is better than Viv as a test batsman though. Personally feel that Lara is the third best batsman of all time after Bradman and Tendulkar.
AWTA too. Lara, WAG. There are days when I have Bradman>Tendulkar>Lara, and days when I have Bradman>Lara>Tendulkar.
 

Burgey

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AWTA too. Lara, WAG. There are days when I have Bradman>Tendulkar>Lara, and days when I have Bradman>Lara>Tendulkar.
Would personally always have Tendulkar ahead of Lara, selective deafness notwithstanding. BCL hit heights like virtually no other, bit he also had some pretty mediocre lows at times (by his standards anyway). I'm not slaggimg him by any stretch, just saying I think Tendulkar is the more consistent player.

I don't know how much you've seem of Sir IVA, but really, he was every bit the batsman Lara and Twmdulkar are/ were.

Again though, it's always a matter of opinion.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Who's this 'Vivian'? Is she the new Sehwag?
lol.

On attacks of 80s vs 90s, here's my opinion fwiw:

WI 90s < WI 80s
Aus 90s > Aus 80s
Eng 90s < Eng 80s
NZ 90s = NZ 80s (More rounded attack of Nash, Cairns, Doull, Vettori mk I, balances out the Hadlee factor, though it's very close)
Pak 90s > Pak 80s
India 90s = India 80s (tricky one)
SL 90s > SL 80s
SA > than not playing at all
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Noooo.

Akram at his peak + Younis at his peak + Saqlain at his peak + one random bowler > Imran at his peak + Sarfraz + Qadir + one random bowler + patriotic umpire
Had them wrong way round tbh. Will edit.

EDIT: Though patriotic umpire had a good strike rate last I heard.:ph34r:
 
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Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I think players who are fantastic at one format tend to become a little overrated in the other at times.

Not here though. Viv's the ****ing man.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Lot of people (including Imran Khan who apparently believe he is the best batsman he has seen) believe that Viv Richard is one of the best TEST batsman ever. but one look at his record may create some doubts.

His overall test Record

Mat Inn NO Runs H.S Ave 100 50 0 4s 6s

121 182 12 8540 291 50.23 24 45 10 1051+ 84

His overall record suggests that he is one of the finest but a detailed look may create some doubts.......




Here we can see that he has comparatively struggled against AUS and PAK

This suggests that he struggled against quality pace bowlers in Tests. I for one believe that BC Lara is the best west Indian TEST batsman ever.

I want to know the opinion of you guys.
Definitely not over-rated. Imran Khan knew well about bowling and I can tell you he is one fearless man. I remember Ian Chappel saying on TV that Imran told him that the sight of Viv in full flow is the most intimidating sight for a fast bowler.

Is that the Imran / Hadlee / Lillee effect?
I doubt. Although these guys had their days against Richards too but a lot of the times he came out on top and had them flogged all over the park.

If I were making a case against Viv Richards, I really wouldn't try to argue that he struggled against pace.
TRUE THAT.

Who's this 'Vivian'? Is she the new Sehwag?
LOL........funny.
 

kingjulian

U19 12th Man
Hi Guys,

I may be taking this a bit off topic, but i feel its still relevant.

Whenever the question - 'which was the toughest era to bat?' is posed - people go on and on about this fast bowler who was express quick, and that fast bowler who was an expert at cracking skulls etc..etc.

It's not just about that guys...you often ignore
1. Variety of bowling
2. Strength of Cricket as a competition
3. A unit is only as strong as its weakest element

If there are only one or two strong bowling attacks around the world, the strength of the Competition is weak and it is far easier to score big in such scenarios. Also it is far tougher to score runs when the player is exposed to varied condition, a vareity of bowling type and bowling attack. Proof for this is that, if you consider the averages of Sachin and Lara against Sri Lanka, England and Australia alone, their average is in the high 60s and early 70 range. Lastly you often speak about the great strike bowlers, but what about the rest? Because it will be far easier to eek out an average if the opponent has only one or two strong bowlers and others are pie throwers....Sometimes it is easy for a batsmen to suss out a particular type of bowling attack, however good it is, but it is a lot harder to that when the competition keeps throwing new challenges at you. We saw this very competition drive us to innovations such as reverse swing and the off spinners wrong-one, slider etc in the late 80s and early 90s.

Going purely on statistics which provides a rough estimation of all factors - I would say the 90s were a harder period to score than the 80s. The addition of South Africa and Zimbabwe to the tour program, added more variety and brought in some world class competition especially from Wessels' and Cronje's teams. Sri Lanka announced themselves as a force to be reckoned with in mid 90s, and they brought one of the most deadliest bowlers, who never actually tried to crack open a batsman's cranium. The combinations available in Spin and Pace bowling in any Cricket season in the 90s was unbelievable.

We had Spin bowlers like Kumble, Warne, Murali, Quadir and later on players like Harbhajan and Saqlain turn on the screws.

While we had fast strike bowlers like - Ambrose, Walsh, Akram, Waqar Younis, McGrath, Alan Donald, Fraser, Pollock and we still had some of the legends from the 80s playing around in early 90s likeImran Khan, McDermott, Kapil Dev, Hadlee etc.

More importantly - the second rung of bowlers (slow and fast) Mushtaq Ahmed, Raju, Chauhan, Srinath, Kallis, Klusener, Cronje, Gough, Vaas, Devon Malcom, Morisson - the support act was stronger than ever.

This is also seen statistically with the 90s being the hardest era to bat in. So quite literally the number of easy overs in international cricket was decreasing. The top 7 averaged lesser and it was just not easy to score a century.

The decade of the batsmen | Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com

I really don't see how this is even up for debate.

So on this basis - if Lara averaged more than what Richards averaged in the 80, then Lara's ability can't be played down in anyway.

I get it, Richards played with a winners swagger, but Lara i guess was the better test batsman, even if it is marginal.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Hi Guys,

I may be taking this a bit off topic, but i feel its still relevant.

Whenever the question - 'which was the toughest era to bat?' is posed - people go on and on about this fast bowler who was express quick, and that fast bowler who was an expert at cracking skulls etc..etc.

It's not just about that guys...you often ignore
1. Variety of bowling
2. Strength of Cricket as a competition
3. A unit is only as strong as its weakest element

If there are only one or two strong bowling attacks around the world, the strength of the Competition is weak and it is far easier to score big in such scenarios. Also it is far tougher to score runs when the player is exposed to varied condition, a vareity of bowling type and bowling attack. Proof for this is that, if you consider the averages of Sachin and Lara against Sri Lanka, England and Australia alone, their average is in the high 60s and early 70 range. Lastly you often speak about the great strike bowlers, but what about the rest? Because it will be far easier to eek out an average if the opponent has only one or two strong bowlers and others are pie throwers....Sometimes it is easy for a batsmen to suss out a particular type of bowling attack, however good it is, but it is a lot harder to that when the competition keeps throwing new challenges at you. We saw this very competition drive us to innovations such as reverse swing and the off spinners wrong-one, slider etc in the late 80s and early 90s.

Going purely on statistics which provides a rough estimation of all factors - I would say the 90s were a harder period to score than the 80s. The addition of South Africa and Zimbabwe to the tour program, added more variety and brought in some world class competition especially from Wessels' and Cronje's teams. Sri Lanka announced themselves as a force to be reckoned with in mid 90s, and they brought one of the most deadliest bowlers, who never actually tried to crack open a batsman's cranium. The combinations available in Spin and Pace bowling in any Cricket season in the 90s was unbelievable.

We had Spin bowlers like Kumble, Warne, Murali, Quadir and later on players like Harbhajan and Saqlain turn on the screws.

While we had fast strike bowlers like - Ambrose, Walsh, Akram, Waqar Younis, McGrath, Alan Donald, Fraser, Pollock and we still had some of the legends from the 80s playing around in early 90s likeImran Khan, McDermott, Kapil Dev, Hadlee etc.

More importantly - the second rung of bowlers (slow and fast) Mushtaq Ahmed, Raju, Chauhan, Srinath, Kallis, Klusener, Cronje, Gough, Vaas, Devon Malcom, Morisson - the support act was stronger than ever.

This is also seen statistically with the 90s being the hardest era to bat in. So quite literally the number of easy overs in international cricket was decreasing. The top 7 averaged lesser and it was just not easy to score a century.

The decade of the batsmen | Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com

I really don't see how this is even up for debate.

So on this basis - if Lara averaged more than what Richards averaged in the 80, then Lara's ability can't be played down in anyway.

I get it, Richards played with a winners swagger, but Lara i guess was the better test batsman, even if it is marginal.
Not a bad analysis.........
 

kingjulian

U19 12th Man
On another note, it seems every top batsman does well against England. They should actually be considered a minnow. In that event, i don't know if Ashes should still be celebrated so grandly.
 
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Slifer

International Captain
Viv>Lara and not overrated. First people need to realise that Viv (as mentioned b4) up to like his 101st test averaged like 53 with 23 tons, then he nose dived as he was well past his best.

Then one has to take into account that there were no teams like BangLAdesh or Zim during his time ( he never played against SL of his time) for Viv to milk for runs. Every team of his time had a decent to very good attak. He may not have played against the Murali/Warne esque bowlers but he did face Underwood, Chandra and co, Qadir. Qasim etc

Viv averaged 40 + vs all teams and only under 40 away to NZ (over 3 tests). He averaged 49 at home and 50 away. If im not mistaken he also averages 45+ for the 1st 2nd 3rd 4th innings. These are stats Lara cant claim. I remeber very fondly a test vs India when WI had to chase like 180 odd in like 30 overs Viv goes in and blasts 60 sumthin in like 20 balls (dont quote me on that) game over.

I could continue on but time does not permit. Suffice to say he isnt overrated, not in the least bit.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Greatest ODI Batsman of all time.

Will resist commenting on whether he is overrated as a test batsman.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I tend to rate people based on their performances relative to their peers in the same generation as it is the closest to a common denominator as you can get. With that being said, Viv Richards is pretty much universally rated as the best batsman of his generation by anyone who has bowled to him. With the exception of Bradman, I dont think the same could be said about any other batsman.

Whether Lara, Tendulkar or chimpface is a better batter than Viv Richards is something that will be the source of constant argument, but its hard to see how big Viv is 'overrated'.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
From everything I hear about him, I just feel sorry and deflated that I never saw him play myself.
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
lol.

On attacks of 80s vs 90s, here's my opinion fwiw:

WI 90s < WI 80s
Aus 90s > Aus 80s
Eng 90s < Eng 80s
NZ 90s = NZ 80s (More rounded attack of Nash, Cairns, Doull, Vettori mk I, balances out the Hadlee factor, though it's very close)
Pak 90s > Pak 80s
India 90s = India 80s (tricky one)
SL 90s > SL 80s
SA > than not playing at all

Depends which part of the decade you're talking about for England, imo.

Early 80s and late 90s = fairly decent attack
Late 80s and early 90s = D.I.R.E.

I personally think the Australian and England attacks of the mid-80s were some of the worst for both countries.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
Depends which part of the decade you're talking about for England, imo.

Early 80s and late 90s = fairly decent attack
Late 80s and early 90s = D.I.R.E.
.
Would you really classify England's late 90s attack as fairly decent? I mean granted the likes of Gough, Fraser and Caddick would have looked great on paper, but Gough was injured for most of the decade and when he played he was mostly unfit. Caddick was constantly dropped and reselected for illogical reasons until Hussain became captain (which was pretty much at the end of the decade) and Fraser was in the same boat as Caddick and was pretty much at the end of his career by that point.

Which by and large meant that we were stuck with the Silverwoods, Tufnells, Tudors, Mullally's and Corks of this world who were all distinctively average. Would say that only after 2000 when Gough and Caddick played regularly did they have a decent bowling attack personally.
 

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