Sobers rates Subash Gupte over Shane Warne

[Ikki]

My post was made with regards to SJS's posts. Gupte didn't have very good support, however that works for and against him. Just like having too much support can work for and against you. He had a few very good years but little after that. His best haul against the WIndies came on jutte matting and against the better test countries his records are very average.

That does not make up the ballpark difference between their figures. What's even more interesting is that Warne's era was even worse for spin bowlers and he did better than Gupte in comparison to them. The average spinner averaged ~ 30 during Gupte's career and ~35 during Warne's (and his era was a bit freakish since it also includes Murali otherwise the stats in comparison would be even more impressive).

 

[bagapath]

I think Bagapath's reasoning is a pile of crap for reasons already stated. Gupte's record should be looked at in the light of SJS's post IMO, ftr. A 11 point difference in averages puts players in entirely different ballparks.

so does a difference of 4 points. marshall and walsh are not in the same plane. neither do john snow and srinath. similarly warne and gupte are not in the same ball park either. also, warne is better than gupte not just in terms of avg. both his SR and wkt/test are also superior. of course, malinga and hadlee shud not be compared. the difference between them is larger than the difference between gupte and warne. but it was the only way i could stop this crap about googly.

 

[aussie]

Its is not a Googly. When the ball is released, it appears that he wanted to bowl a goodle, but the end result is not.

And thank you for that video, continues to prove the kind of mediocre English batsmen Warne feasted on through out the 90s.[/QUOTE]

Ok. So what does it look like to you a top spinner or something?

Plus although what you said about ENG batsman is true. Are you taking a jab @ Warne?, since Warne also spun out SA, PAK, WI batsmen with big spells.

And I can bet every single dollar I have that the likes of John Arlott, Sir Neville Cardus, CLR James wouldn't have called Sobers an 'idiot' or a 'troll' for having an opinion.

Yea they wont. But like me they would be disappointed they hear such a POV from a great cricketer, which is baseless.

 

[Teja.]

so does a difference of 4 points. marshall and walsh are not in the same plane. neither do john snow and srinath. similarly warne and gupte are not in the same ball park either. also, warne is better than gupte not just in terms of avg. both his SR and wkt/test are also superior. of course, malinga and hadlee shud not be compared. the difference between them is larger than the difference between gupte and warne. but it was the only way i could stop this crap about googly.

Difference of 3 in average almost as high as four, Legendary Australian pacer, the best of the Pace Quartet, not in the same league etc.

 

[bagapath]

Difference of 3 in average almost as high as four, Legendary Australian pacer, the best of the Pace Quartet, not in the same league etc.

why do you think i covered my ass with the wkt/test stat in my argument? (i am so glad you did not bring up warne vs the 19 wkts in a single game guy)

I hope you remember that warne bowled in a era considered to be favorable to the batsmen. gupte played in a more evenly balanced era. which makes warne's superior average even more remarkable.

 

[aussie]

And Warnie's record against India is always going to be brought up every time there is a discussion about stats (along with certain other things, that will blow this place up, if I even mentioned it).

A record is has always been criminally mischaracterized by Indian fans especially over the years. So yea it wont be wise mention it, since i & others will come down on you like a pile of bricks with the facts

Also not to forget is the First Class record of Gupte, which is better than Warne's.

Ha i hope do you realise that the standard of FC cricket in AUS when Warne played in the 90s. Is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy above the standard of batting Gupte would have bowled to in a weak IND FC competition, when IND where still minnows right?

 

[bagapath]

india has been a tough tough place for visiting leg spinners for quite some time. and it has also been a batting paradise. also india's batting >>> india's bowling. that is why i usually forgive warne's record in india; but not ponting's.

 

[Teja.]

why do you think i covered my ass with the wkt/test stat in my argument?

Okay how about,

Legendary Aussie Spinner/Text messager-Legendary Sri Lankan Spinner- difference in average almost 3- difference in wpm more than one-different leagues etc.

I'm just pulling your leg btw.

 

[Sanz]

india has been a tough tough place for visiting leg spinners for quite some time. and it has also been a batting paradise. also india's batting >>> india's bowling. that is why i usually forgive warne's record in india; but not ponting's.

What's Warne's record against India in Australia ? Take a look at his record against India in ODIs all over the world. As bad as Ponting's record in India is, he has hammered India in Australia and everywhere else.

 

[Sanz]

Ha i hope do you realise that the standard of FC cricket in AUS when Warne played in the 90s. Is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy above the standard of batting Gupte would have bowled to in a weak IND FC competition, when IND where still minnows right?

Like you know anything about them. Yes when start losing the argument start making up stuff.

 

[Sanz]

A record is has always been criminally mischaracterized by Indian fans especially over the years. So yea it wont be wise mention it, since i & others will come down on you like a pile of bricks with the facts

So what facts are you going to come up with If I mentioned that I don't rate Warnie very high because of his association with match fixers and because he was a drug cheat ?

 

[Fusion]

And with that note, it’s time for a cool down period. I’m going to lock this thread for a few hours and then re-open it. Hopefully by then tempers would’ve cooled and we can debate the topic without using points that are sure to inflame people. That goes for both "sides" in this debate.

 

[bagapath]

What's Warne's record against India in Australia ? ...... [edit] Ponting has hammered India in Australia and everywhere else.

It simply means Indian batting is as strong in australia as it is in home grounds. why australia, no leg spinner has succeeded against india in overseas matches in a long time. no wonder warne couldnt dominate india anywhere. indian bowling on the other hand gets much much worse overseas. so ponting thrashing india in australia is very much expected.

 

[GotSpin]

And with that note, it’s time for a cool down period. I’m going to lock this thread for a few hours and then re-open it. Hopefully by then tempers would’ve cooled and we can debate the topic without using points that are sure to inflame people. That goes for both "sides" in this debate.

I said oh dear because I can just see the path that this thread is going to head down now not that he isn't entitled to his own opinion Has occurred in about five thousand other threads

Yeppppp. Thread still needs Sir Alex though. Pity he's banned

 

[Ikki]

But Indian bowling at home is very good. During the 90s it was the best.

 

[tooextracool]

What's Warne's record against India in Australia ? Take a look at his record against India in ODIs all over the world. As bad as Ponting's record in India is, he has hammered India in Australia and everywhere else.

Not really sure how thats the same. As much as India's bowling has improved away from home, their bowling attack away from home has always been a far cry from the one that they put up at home. Ponting scoring runs against India away from home in conditions that largely negate spin bowling proves absolutely nothing.

 

[Ikki]

In fairness to Sanz, Ponting didn't just score runs...he shellacked the bajeezus out of them outside of India. It's pretty curious why he hasn't score runs there. He's not weak against spin and has pummeled the same bowlers in Australia.

 

[tooextracool]

Would think that being a good player of spin involves scoring runs against quality spin bowling. If bowlers can barely get the ball to turn off the square then it seems this statement with regards to Ponting can still only be answered in the negative.

 

[Ikki]

But he did score runs off good spin bowlers in spin bowling conditions - he averages 50 against Murali in Sri Lanka for example. The only place he hasn't done that was in India, hence the curiosity. And no matter how bad you think Indian bowlers are away from home, Ponting's scored so many runs off them that it becomes a little silly to excuse them for that reason. I think he averages almost 80 against India in Aus. In ODIs he averages 45 against them in India. I can't really think why he has done so badly there. Anyway, not sure what this discussion adds to the thread.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah I think this argument has been done before. I dont rate Ponting against spin and Ive seen enough to form that opinion. He isnt terrible but its blatantly obvious that hes not very good.