*Official* Australia vs Pakistan in England

[TumTum]

It should be called "the demolition phase" instead given the amount of legends that retired and about to retire.

 

[Top_Cat]

No problem, we have Mitchell Marsh in the wings who is apparently the best young batting talent in the world, will dominate, etc.

 

[Umar_Akmal]

Young Aamer quickly earns place among world's best

Ponting is renowned for being measured when praising opponents, yet when it came to discussing the now 18-year-old, Ponting was overwhelmingly positive.

''Aamer continues to improve. I think he's not only got good pace up his sleeve and an ability to swing the ball but I think he actually thinks about the game really smartly as well,'' he said.

''He seems a lot more mature than what his age would probably suggest as far as bowling's concerned.''

 

[NUFAN]

Young Aamer quickly earns place among world's best

Ponting is renowned for being measured when praising opponents, yet when it came to discussing the now 18-year-old, Ponting was overwhelmingly positive.

''Aamer continues to improve. I think he's not only got good pace up his sleeve and an ability to swing the ball but I think he actually thinks about the game really smartly as well,'' he said.

''He seems a lot more matured than what his age would probably suggest as far as bowling's concerned.''

And it is completely true. I haven't felt as nervous watching our batting lineup against a particular bowler since the likes of Curtly Ambrose.

This is not to say that Aamer is the best bowler since Curtly, it's a combination of things like our batting lineup not looking very stable at all, the conditions etc.

 

[Faisal1985]

If you are going to bring averages and stats into this, Haddin averages 14 against Pak,how much did they miss him?Paine is a better 'keeper and a decent bat.North got a 5 for against Pak as well...if you really are arguing that Hauritz is the reason Aus couldn't win the series then there is nothing I can say to change that.


As for me being a troll or whatever - I share a common computer where I stay.My roommates once decided that it would be funny to post drivel about Pak and think they voted multiple times in some stupid poll for which I got banned for a week! If I'm trolling because I'm stating my honest opinion about how all bowlers who do well against Aussies are alleged of chucking/tampering generally so be it.If I am trolling because I point out that Pak didn't have their best side and that they got a lot of harsh decisions so be it.

When you talk about Pakistan's recent record you forget that they aren't able to play at home and that makes a big difference.Given how stellar their home record is,I would expect Pakistan to more than hold their own there.Aus' away record has been shoddy of late.I love how posters like Social desperately discredit the rankings given who's at the top but cling to yet when it comes to an Aus vs Pak argument

Not much i can disagree with in this post ...TBH.

 

[Faisal1985]

And it is completely true. I haven't felt as nervous watching our batting lineup against a particular bowler since the likes of Curtly Ambrose.

This is not to say that Aamer is the best bowler since Curtly, it's a combination of things like our batting lineup not looking very stable at all, the conditions etc.

Certainly too early to rate him as a top paceman, however, his rate of improvement is too good..I think we may have a better idea about him against more in form batting of England....

 

[Spark]

Yeah but when do you say it's over? When the team reaches the heights of the early 00's team? If that's the case, the 00's team was essentially in rebuilding since the early 80's, the 70's team in rebuilding since the '48 team and this one will be the same for decades. At some stage people have to accept that, for better or worse, this is the team and has essentially been so for 3 years now. Johnson's not the newbie, he should be the leader of the attack. Clarke's now the best batter in the line-up, etc. They're obviously not as good and may not be number 1 any more but they're also unlikely to free-fall from here.

Realistically, the rebuilding probably finished a while ago. The core is there and blokes are being picked as others get injured/lose form, just as happened in the early 00's. Those guys were just that much better and this combo may not ever be as good.

I fear though that we may see another "rebuilding" process as there is a high chance that three of our four senior players could be gone within two years.

 

[NUFAN]

Certainly too early to rate him as a top paceman, however, his rate of improvement is too good..I think we may have a better idea about him against more in form batting of England....

Yeah it depends on the pitch. I can see him not ending up with good figures if their is no movement. If the pitch is similar to Leeds, the English batsman are likely to struggle heaps against him too.

 

[Stapel]

If you are going to bring averages and stats into this, Haddin averages 14 against Pak,how much did they miss him?Paine is a better 'keeper and a decent bat.North got a 5 for against Pak as well...if you really are arguing that Hauritz is the reason Aus couldn't win the series then there is nothing I can say to change that.


As for me being a troll or whatever - I share a common computer where I stay.My roommates once decided that it would be funny to post drivel about Pak and think they voted multiple times in some stupid poll for which I got banned for a week! If I'm trolling because I'm stating my honest opinion about how all bowlers who do well against Aussies are alleged of chucking/tampering generally so be it.If I am trolling because I point out that Pak didn't have their best side and that they got a lot of harsh decisions so be it.

When you talk about Pakistan's recent record you forget that they aren't able to play at home and that makes a big difference.Given how stellar their home record is,I would expect Pakistan to more than hold their own there.Aus' away record has been shoddy of late.I love how posters like Social desperately discredit the rankings given who's at the top but cling to yet when it comes to an Aus vs Pak argument

Well, that seems to be a fair argument there!

However, don't get carried away here! Pak have a very good pace attack. And it showed in the 1st innings. But in the other 3 innings, I thought Aus were better. The simple fact Pak cannot convert an 88-all-out to an easy & comfortable win, exactly shows their immense weakness. I think it is fair to say that a lot of this much needed and welcomed victory was due to Ponting's decision to bat first!

 

[slowfinger]

Well, that seems to be a fair argument there!

However, don't get carried away here! Pak have a very good pace attack. And it showed in the 1st innings. But in the other 3 innings, I thought Aus were better. The simple fact Pak cannot convert an 88-all-out to an easy & comfortable win, exactly shows their immense weakness. I think it is fair to say that a lot of this much needed and welcomed victory was due to Ponting's decision to bat first!

Just shows how **** their batting lineup is.

 

[Prince EWS]

We've made it perfectly clear to you, GI Joe, that accusing members of being duplicates isn't going to be tolerated from you. We've been over it specifically re: AK. Stop it or you honestly will get banned for it.

 

[G.I.Joe]

We've made it perfectly clear to you, GI Joe, that accusing members of being duplicates isn't going to be tolerated from you. We've been over it specifically re: AK. Stop it or you honestly will get banned for it.

Might as well run amok with an undetectable duplicate and make then ban worth it then

 

[Faisal1985]

Yeah it depends on the pitch. I can see him not ending up with good figures if their is no movement. If the pitch is similar to Leeds, the English batsman are likely to struggle heaps against him too.

Also TBH, as much as i would like to see him bowl on tough tracks, i don't want him to break down either like Mohammad Zahid or even Waqar....the way he bowls (his action)...he is bending his back practically on each delivery and that has its long term consequences, i just hope Pak avoids playing him too much on tough tracks....and not playing in Pak is in a way a blessing in disguise for our bowlers...

 

[Furball]

Yeah but when do you say it's over? When the team reaches the heights of the early 00's team? If that's the case, the 00's team was essentially in rebuilding since the early 80's, the 70's team in rebuilding since the '48 team and this one will be the same for decades. At some stage people have to accept that, for better or worse, this is the team and has essentially been so for 3 years now. Johnson's not the newbie, he should be the leader of the attack. Clarke's now the best batter in the line-up, etc. They're obviously not as good and may not be number 1 any more but they're also unlikely to free-fall from here.

Realistically, the rebuilding probably finished a while ago. The core is there and blokes are being picked as others get injured/lose form, just as happened in the early 00's. Those guys were just that much better and this combo may not ever be as good.

Get your point, and while I agree with it to an extent, IMO the rebuilding process is still ongoing.

We had the game of musical chairs with the spinner - the most recent home summer for Australia was the first time since Warne's retirement that the spinner's slot was occupied by the same person for 2 complete, consecutive series.

Constant injuries to the bowlers hasn't helped - Hauritz, having finally established himself as Australia's number 1 spinner, is currently injured, and while the pace bowling trio of Lee-Clark-Johnson, established in the first Test post McGrath/Warne, was fairly settled for the first year of the new era, playing together in 13 of the first 15 Tests, injuries to Clark and Lee have neccesitated building a new fast bowling unit. Having appeared to have done that with the Johnson-Siddle-Hilfenhaus trio, Hilfenhaus then spent all of last winter injured, and Siddle has been injured for the past 5 months. The attack of Johnson-Siddle-Hilfenhaus-Hauritz, having apparently been settled on as first choice post Ashes, has played 1 Test together in that time frame, the first of the home summer.

While the batting line up has been subject to less drama injury wise, there are huge question marks over the batting. Watson has looked uncomfortable opening and IMO isn't a Test opener, Katich has been putting the runs on the board up without converting his numerous starts into big hundreds - a cardinal sin from an experienced player in such a weak, collapse prone batting line up - Ponting and Hussey look as if they're in terminal decline and the pair only barely average above 40 in the post McGrath-Warne era (Ponting's average in this time frame places him just above Daniel Vettori and Ian Bell: Hussey is below these two), and neither batsman has age on their side. Marcus North isn't a Test standard batsman.

While I completely agree with your opinion that this is the side as it stands and isn't likely to change much, at the same time I don't think you can declare the rebuilding phase over when the batting lineup is as weak as it is and the bowling line-up, admittedly largely as a result of injury (and some ****ing strange selectoral policies when it comes to selecting the spinner), hasn't been settled for 2 years.

 

[Faisal1985]

Alan Tyers: Ricky makes an announcement | Page 2 | Cricinfo.com

 

[Top_Cat]

We had the game of musical chairs with the spinner - the most recent home summer for Australia was the first time since Warne's retirement that the spinner's slot was occupied by the same person for 2 complete, consecutive series.

I see that but I don't see it as much different to the pre-Warne days. Spinners are generally in-and-out of sides as they go in and our of form. What was out of the ordinary was a spinner who was a constant presence in the side, really. Before him OZ had a revolving spinner spot stretching all the way back to Benords. Warne was a freak in many ways, as was Murali.

While the batting line up has been subject to less drama injury wise, there are huge question marks over the batting. Watson has looked uncomfortable opening and IMO isn't a Test opener, Katich has been putting the runs on the board up without converting his numerous starts into big hundreds - a cardinal sin from an experienced player in such a weak, collapse prone batting line up

See, again, I don't see that as a problem per se. Openers scoring big tons has always been and is still quite unusual and only a few freaks like Sehwag are able to do it any more. David Boon, probably one of OZ's best post-war openers, had a highest Test score of 200 and it was a good thing if he went on but if he took the shine off the ball and got past 50, he did his job. Katich does his job but if he doesn't go on, I don't rate that as a problem, just an acknowledgement he's not Hayden. The guy won't bash a quick 150+ and I don't see why anyone would hold that against him, wonky batting line-up after him or not. He's consistent and a team can work with that. That they don't is a problem for the rest of the batting line-up to solve and not Katich, tbh. Would the 1st innings scores change much if Katich, instead of scoring 85, scored 110? I don't think so.

Norf has always been a boom or bust guy and when he was opening for WA, wasn't that much of a problem. At 6, you need a bloke who starts well at least but, at the same time, there's no-one in OZ state cricket absolutely demanding selection at 6 unless you wanna shoehorn Smith into the spot. OZ also don't have a 'keeper who can scrap out a handy 40 in a crisis, either. Both 'keepers are stroke players which makes a collapse more likely because they're always looking to force the pace.

While I completely agree with your opinion that this is the side as it stands and isn't likely to change much, at the same time I don't think you can declare the rebuilding phase over when the batting lineup is as weak as it is and the bowling line-up, admittedly largely as a result of injury (and some ****ing strange selectoral policies when it comes to selecting the spinner), hasn't been settled for 2 years.

Fair enough but at the same time, I wish we didn't see the 'rebuilding phase' excuse wheeled out every time (shock, horror, etc.) someone beats Australia. It's piss weak and just gets ridiculous at times. Whenever someone who can bat and bowl comes along, suddenly "Australia has finally found the next Keith Miller!" when the guy last played 70 years ago! We're apparently still waiting for the next Bradman....

 

[Furball]

Scoring 50 or 60 and getting rid of the shine is fine when you've got batting depth below you. When your opening partner is a massive lbw candidate to any bowler who can move the ball, and the middle order, with the exception of Clarke, is as likely to collapse in a heap as it is to take advantage of the situation you've created, then scoring 160 instead of 60 matters. I'm not criticising Katich for his form, but at the same time his lack of coverting starts is a factor in why the Australian lineup is so weak.

Get what you're saying about excuses, but when you consider that 3 of the top 6 are all 35 (give or take a month in the case of Katich), and 4 of them are under-performing then you have to figure that at some point the batting order is going to need rebuilt in the same way the bowling attack has been in the 3 years of the post McGrath-Warne era. Except unlike in the 2005-07 period, there's not exactly a plethora of candidates with hard yards in FC cricket to pick from: Phil Jacques aside, there's not even anyone who has some experience of Test cricket to call on the way Michael Clarke or Simon Katich did when they were recalled.

 

[Top_Cat]

Scoring 50 or 60 and getting rid of the shine is fine when you've got batting depth below you. When your opening partner is a massive lbw candidate to any bowler who can move the ball, and the middle order, with the exception of Clarke, is as likely to collapse in a heap as it is to take advantage of the situation you've created, then scoring 160 instead of 60 matters. I'm not criticising Katich for his form, but at the same time his lack of coverting starts is a factor in why the Australian lineup is so weak.

What to do about it though? Asking Katich for more runs is all well and good but a bit much considering the burden he's already shouldering.

Get what you're saying about excuses, but when you consider that 3 of the top 6 are all 35 (give or take a month in the case of Katich), and 4 of them are under-performing then you have to figure that at some point the batting order is going to need rebuilt in the same way the bowling attack has been in the 3 years of the post McGrath-Warne era. Except unlike in the 2005-07 period, there's not exactly a plethora of candidates with hard yards in FC cricket to pick from: Phil Jacques aside, there's not even anyone who has some experience of Test cricket to call on the way Michael Clarke or Simon Katich did when they were recalled.

Exactly. In the absence of better options (and you just need to look at the averages for the last couple of Shield seasons to see there aren't any), the selectors have only the current line-up to work with. Just have to accept that teams which the 00's side would have pulverised unrecognisable might just sneak a win occasionally. Or even take a home series off them.

 

[Pothas]

Don't think we should exaggerate the Australian batting problems too much. Watson has generally done a pretty good job opening and these two tests aside the Katich-Watson partnership has been pretty successful. (Would play Hughes myself though)

Clarke is a fantastic player these days.
North is obviously a problem but Haddin is a very good number 7.

There obviously has been problems of late though and I guess the big question is Ponting and Hussey and there long term form. Will just have to wait and see on this one I guess but even on current form they are far from bad test match batsmen. I would bring in Hughes myself with Watson at 3 or 4. Hussey coming in at 6 with Haddin at 7 (maybe even Smith at 8) still looks pretty strong to me.

Regardless of what they do I expect them to score a decent amount of runs in the ashes.

 

[Furball]

I checked out the batting records of every side in the post McGrath-Warne era, and you'd be suprised at just how ordinary Australia's batting has been in that period.