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English national football, where do we go from here?

vcs

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He will probably get shifted to the left Flank to accomodate Lampard like Scholesy was and then will retire.

Just yesterday in a friendly against Celtic,Scholes produced passes which don't think even Xavi could have .Delightful long balls with 100 % accuracy.
Scholes is better at the pin-point long cross-field balls than Xavi, Xavi is better at just keeping the ball, patiently probing and hitting defence splitting through-balls. Reflects the differences in the environments and cultures they have played in. I think they are both wonderful players who could have done equally well if their roles had been reversed.
 

Uppercut

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Scholes is better at the pin-point long cross-field balls than Xavi, Xavi is better at just keeping the ball, patiently probing and hitting defence splitting through-balls. Reflects the differences in the environments and cultures they have played in. I think they are both wonderful players who could have done equally well if their roles had been reversed.
Don't think this is true tbh, Xavi chooses not to play many long balls, correctly adjudging that they're rarely the best option, but when he does he gets them right.

Scholes is remarkably good at running the show given that he only really became that kind of player in his 30s. But he's just nowhere near Xavi's level at anything anymore.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Any chance this can go to the GSF as there may well be mileage to come from it once this subforum is done and dusted?
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
There is nothing delightful about a long ball.
Disagree, tbh. As someone once said (Shankly?) it's not about long balls or short balls, but the right ball. Jerry's first against us in the 2nd Round came from something as straight forward as a long ball over the top.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Scholes is easily the most under-appreciated footballer of his generation.

Utterly wipes the floor with Lampard and Gerrard - perhaps it's not a coincidence that England haven't looked as likely to win a major tournament since his retirement?
 

PhoenixFire

International Coach
Scholes is easily the most under-appreciated footballer of his generation.

Utterly wipes the floor with Lampard and Gerrard - perhaps it's not a coincidence that England haven't looked as likely to win a major tournament since his retirement?
Agree with this so much.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Scholes is easily the most under-appreciated footballer of his generation.

Utterly wipes the floor with Lampard and Gerrard - perhaps it's not a coincidence that England haven't looked as likely to win a major tournament since his retirement?
I'd say Gerrard's all-round game for his club is better - scholes is woeful at tackling - but from an international pov, would have to agree. He was only bettered by Rooney and Cole at Euro 04 of our players, IMO.
 

cpr

International Coach
Scholes' tackling is an art IMO.


Mind you so is some ****ney sluts bed, but meh...... What was my point again?
 

Neil Pickup

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Disagree, tbh. As someone once said (Shankly?) it's not about long balls or short balls, but the right ball. Jerry's first against us in the 2nd Round came from something as straight forward as a long ball over the top.
This is because we had the worst central defensive pairing to wear England shirts since Southgate and Gardner against Sweden six years ago.

Long balls might be effective sometimes, but they're never delightful.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
This is because we had the worst central defensive pairing to wear England shirts since Southgate and Gardner against Sweden six years ago.

Long balls might be effective sometimes, but they're never delightful.
Maybe not usually, but reckon one can at least admire the 60 yard crossfield pass when it's accurate and the first touch is good, from a technical standpoint if nothing else.

As someone who spent a lot of time and money watching one of the prime exponents of the upfield hoof in the early 90s I can confirm it's rarely delightful to watch, even when it secures back-to-back promotions.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
I'd say Gerrard's all-round game for his club is better - scholes is woeful at tackling - but from an international pov, would have to agree. He was only bettered by Rooney and Cole at Euro 04 of our players, IMO.
Scholes being woeful at tackling doesn't change the fact that his passing, vision, touch, game intelligence, shooting and technique are streets ahead of Lampard or Gerrard's.

Lampard and Gerrard have been at their best playing as a sort of withdrawn striker - neither have had the sort of season Scholes had in 2002/03 (Lampard's come close though), and IMO neither have the game to re-invent themselves as a deeper lying playmaker when they get into their early-mid 30s the way Scholes has.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Scholes is easily the most under-appreciated footballer of his generation.

Utterly wipes the floor with Lampard and Gerrard - perhaps it's not a coincidence that England haven't looked as likely to win a major tournament since his retirement?
Didn't look like winning one whilst he was playing either tbf.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Disagree, tbh. As someone once said (Shankly?) it's not about long balls or short balls, but the right ball. Jerry's first against us in the 2nd Round came from something as straight forward as a long ball over the top.
Wouldn't say it was particularly delightful tbh. Says more about the state of the defence than anything else.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Scholes being woeful at tackling doesn't change the fact that his passing, vision, touch, game intelligence, shooting and technique are streets ahead of Lampard or Gerrard's.

Lampard and Gerrard have been at their best playing as a sort of withdrawn striker - neither have had the sort of season Scholes had in 2002/03 (Lampard's come close though), and IMO neither have the game to re-invent themselves as a deeper lying playmaker when they get into their early-mid 30s the way Scholes has.
Gerrard made a name for himself as the deep lying playmaker. It's where Houllier played him and he carried Liverpool to 4th in 03-04 playing that very role. Had he not done that they would not have won the European Cup in 05 as they would not have been in it. His form was so impressive in that season that he went into the Euros with more expectation on him than Rooney, I reckon.

He is better playing as the withdrawn striker/attacking midfielder, I agree, but it's ignorant to say he couldn't play the role of a deep-lying playmaker when he did it in his early 20s.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Have always much preferred him in a deep lying role tbh. Granted he adds a lot going forward, but like you say, I think his work back down the field is massively underated and people seem to have forgotten how effective he was there a few years ago.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Didn't look like winning one whilst he was playing either tbf.
I reckon England looked good enough in 2002 and 2004 to potentially win either tournament. One thing they did lack was that little bit of luck that sometimes makes all the difference - Beckham having his metatarsal broken by Aldo Duscher in a Champions League tie in 2001/02, meaning he went into the World Cup unfit, and England ending up in Brazil's half of the draw put a dampener on their chances - stick England in Germany's half and they'd easily have made the final in 2002. Once you get to a final, anything can happen. Wayne Rooney getting injured against Portugal in Euro 2004 were another bit of misfortune that stopped England from having a chance at ending the 36/38 years of hurt.

Whereas in 2006 England always looked likely to fold against the first decent opposition they faced - they were turgid against Trinidad and Tobago in the group stages and crap against Paraguay in the last 16, and we've covered the 2010 effort enough over the last month.
 

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Gerrard made a name for himself as the deep lying playmaker. It's where Houllier played him and he carried Liverpool to 4th in 03-04 playing that very role. Had he not done that they would not have won the European Cup in 05 as they would not have been in it. His form was so impressive in that season that he went into the Euros with more expectation on him than Rooney, I reckon.

He is better playing as the withdrawn striker/attacking midfielder, I agree, but it's ignorant to say he couldn't play the role of a deep-lying playmaker when he did it in his early 20s.
Always thought Gerrard's game when he was younger was as more of a box-to-box dynamo who could grab a game by the scruff of the neck and drive/drag his team to victory myself - whilst he certainly played deeper under Houllier, I'd still consider it to be a different role to the one Scholes has played since 2006.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Funnily enough, I agree with all of that. Beckham's injury wasn't the only one in 02 of course. Gerrard himself another notable miss, Gary Neville, Carragher (don't think he'd have got a game back then).

Don't think you could put the whole thing in 06 down to Scholes' retirement though if that's the link you're trying to make. Cultural problems within the whole setup caused a downward spiral in the last two years of Sven's reign for my liking.
 

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