Good/Great bowlers that owned good/great batsman...

[Cevno]

Actually ishant has gotten ponting 5 times out of 13 times.

He has also got Michael clarke out 5 times out of 13.

But still he has not dominated clarke in the same way as he has ponting.

Infact in a surprising set of dismissal stats ,Andre nel has got Lara out 8 times out of 12 .(But lara has done pretty well in those innings.)

 

[Sir Alex]

So if you get Ponting out twice in a match for **** all you dominate him? Fine.

But don't propogate the myth that Lara blasted match winning doubles against McGrath for toffee. McGrath got Lara out cheaply a **** load more times than Sharma did Ponting. But apparently Sharma "owns" Ponting but good ol' Brian, well he was all over McGrath. **** me dead.

Lara was a great player - had highs higher than anyone I reckon, but he also had periods of utter ****e, and still others of utter ****e where he frankly seemed not to give a ****.

How about a ****ing 5 times in a ****ing 7 matches in a ****ing period of ****ing 8 months? If that is not supposed to owning then for ****'s sake please ****ing tell me what is the meaning of ownage.

That Lara smacked double hundreds is not a myth for ****'s sake. Even McGrath ackowledged it was more of an even contest between him and Lara.

Sharma got him as cheap as a duck 5 ****ing times and the maximum runs Ponting scored against him was 33 in a match. For record, Ponting loses his wicket every time he makes 23 runs against Sharma. That isn't dominating??? Also we haven't even taken into consideration the no. of times he was beaten, caught behind not given, lbws not given which is for another discussion altogether.

Sorry Burgey. Your rant is Bradmanesque but just couldn't hold myself from doing a cheap Chinese imitation.

 

[Sir Alex]

Actually ishant has gotten ponting 5 times out of 13 times.

He has also got Michael clarke out 5 times out of 13.

But still he has not dominated clarke in the same way as he has ponting.

Infact in a surprising set of dismissal stats ,Andre nel has got Lara out 8 times out of 12 .(But lara has done pretty well in those innings.)

I'd love to count it as 6/13 because a caught behind as clear as daylight in Sydney wasn't given. Anyway.

 

[Migara]

So out of 18 innings ,he got him 6 times.(33.33%)

That is hardly owning him.
And this coming from the same guy who says Ishant getting ponting out 5 out of 13 times(40 % nearly) is not owning him.

 

[The Sean]

I'd love to count it as 6/13 because a caught behind as clear as daylight in Sydney wasn't given. Anyway.

And you'd be absolutely right to do so. Seeing as that is the only time in the history of cricket that an incorrect decision has been given, you could legitimately count that dismissal secure in the knowledge that no other bowler/batsman stat would have to be changed accordingly.

 

[Sir Alex]

And you'd be absolutely right to do so. Seeing as that is the only time in the history of cricket that an incorrect decision has been given, you could legitimately count that dismissal secure in the knowledge that no other bowler/batsman stat would have to be changed accordingly.

That's purely my perspective and it is not for debating with anyone. You are allowed if you want to bag me on that.

 

[Burgey]

How about a ****ing 5 times in a ****ing 7 matches in a ****ing period of ****ing 8 months? If that is not supposed to owning then for ****'s sake please ****ing tell me what is the meaning of ownage.

That Lara smacked double hundreds is not a myth for ****'s sake. Even McGrath ackowledged it was more of an even contest between him and Lara.

Sharma got him as cheap as a duck 5 ****ing times and the maximum runs Ponting scored against him was 33 in a match. For record, Ponting loses his wicket every time he makes 23 runs against Sharma. That isn't dominating??? Also we haven't even taken into consideration the no. of times he was beaten, caught behind not given, lbws not given which is for another discussion altogether.

Sorry Burgey. Your rant is Bradmanesque but just couldn't hold myself from doing a cheap Chinese imitation.

Mate McGrath made Lara look like a school kid here on the tour where he was part of McGrath's hat trick, and also the tour where Lara's only score was on the road at Adelaide - you know, the same one it was earlier said it should be held against Ponting for scoring runs on.

The point is, Ponting has scored runs in matches Sharma has bowled to him, Lara has scored runs in matches McGrath bowled to him in. Yet each bowler has also got the batsman out cheaply on multiple occasions too.

The real crime here is in describing Sharma as "good", because right now he looks a flash in the pan, one which I admit took me in too.

And ftr Zoe Goss owns Lara. She got jim out 100% of the times they played, and he scored **** all off her bowling.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Jesus wept. My hopes weren't high for the thread, tbh, but it's comfortably lived down to those expectations. Shame, 'cos it's an interesting Q, IMHO.

Anyway, here's cricinfo's list of bowlers who've dismissed a batsman the most times: link.

McGrath's pwnage of Athers (19 times in 17 test, wow) is by far and away the worst/best, but what I find more interesting is some of the less heralded bowlers who've had the eye over some of the AT greats. For instance tubby Saffie off-spinner Athol Rowan claimed Sir Leonard Hutton 11 times in 15 test & big earred Anglo-kiwi Candy Addick had SR Waugh 10 times in 17 tests, with the great man scoring a little over 10 runs on each occasion.

 

[Ikki]

So out of 18 innings ,he got him 6 times.(33.33%)

That is hardly owning him.
And this coming from the same guy who says Ishant getting ponting out 5 out of 13 times(40 % nearly) is not owning him.

Ponting averages 44 in matches against Ishant, Tendulkar averages 36 against McGrath IIRC. You seemed to miss that important stat.

You can get a player out 10 times in 10 innings but if he is scoring enough runs then it's hardly dominating him is it?

 

[Sir Alex]

Made McGrath made Lara look like a school kid here on the tour where he was part of McGrath's hat trick, and also the tour where Lara's only score was on the road at Adelaide - you know, the same one it was earlier said it should be held against Ponting for scoring runs on.

The point is, Ponting has scored runs in matches Sharma has bowled to him, Lara has scored runs in matches McGrath bowled to him in. Yest each bowler has also got the batsman out cheaply on multiple occasions too.

The real crime here is in describing Sharma as "good", because right now he looks a flash in the pan, one which I admit took me in too.

And ftr Zoe Goss owns Lara. She got jim out 100% of the times they played, and he scored **** all off her bowling.

Burgey, I'd love to have the Player vs Player stats for McGrath vs Lara tussles. If those were similar to what happened incase of Ishant vs Ponting, I'll be happy to plead the loudmouth Australian's case. (McGrath to avoid confustion )

The difference also lies in the fact that Ponting never really "dominated" Ishant like Lara did for how small a period... As I showed above, every single dismissal by Ishanth came by him getting on top of Ponting, (and not because Ponting tried something aggressive). Ishanth really never was put under any sort of pressure in the 7 matches they played against each other, but Ishanth was able to put Ponting under heavy duress for atleast 6-7 times.

 

[Sir Alex]

Ponting averages 44 in matches against Ishant, Tendulkar averages 36 against McGrath IIRC. You seemed to miss that important stat.

You can get a player out 10 times in 10 innings but if he is scoring enough runs then it's hardly dominating him is it?

It is much more misleading stat than the bowling avg thrown by cricinfo while taking "dismissed by". I think PvP is the best way to go here.

 

[The Sean]

In a naive (and quite probably utterly pointless) attempt to recover part of this thread's dignity, I've always found there to be an interesting distinction between bowlers getting batsmen out a lot for **** all (McGrath v Atherton, Harby v Punter etc) and bowlers getting batsmen out a lot but with the batsmen enjoying considerable success as well (McGrath v Lara).

Bedser vs Morris - mentioned earlier in this thread - is a good example of this. It has passed into cricket lore that Morris was Bedser's bunny (those exact words were used in fact), given that Sir Alec got the Aussie opener 18 times in 37 innings, the killer blows coming in 50/51 when he dismissed Morris 6 times in the space of 8 innings for next to nothing. And yet, when you look that their overall career against each other, Morris scored 8 of his 12 Test centuries and averaged something like 61 against attacks which featured Bedser - these included his famous 196 at the Oval in 1948, his highest Test score of 206 at the end of that 50/51 series and an innings of 153 in the first Test of 54/55 which was to be the last time the two met.

The two were firm and lifelong friends, and there's a wonderful story from that 50/51 series. After nailing Morris yet again for bugger all, Bedser cheekily sent Morris a copy of Don Bradman's book How To Play Cricket with a note that said something like "I hope this helps." In the very next Test Morris played that innings of 206 and sent Bedser a letter in reply thanking him for the assistance.

 

[honestbharani]

Made McGrath made Lara look like a school kid here on the tour where he was part of McGrath's hat trick, and also the tour where Lara's only score was on the road at Adelaide - you know, the same one it was earlier said it should be held against Ponting for scoring runs on.

The point is, Ponting has scored runs in matches Sharma has bowled to him, Lara has scored runs in matches McGrath bowled to him in. Yest each bowler has also got the batsman out cheaply on multiple occasions too.

The real crime here is in describing Sharma as "good", because right now he looks a flash in the pan, one which I admit took me in too.

And ftr Zoe Goss owns Lara. She got jim out 100% of the times they played, and he scored **** all off her bowling.

lol.. sorry about bursting your bubble mate, but McGrath's hattrick was on the same tour when Lara got the 182 at Adelaide...


If you are taking about the 2005 tour, you are totally wrong coz Lara looked every inch the greatest batsman of the generation then... (I know the call is debatable, but he was bloody good and was basically robbed by the umps 3 times and by a couple of awesome catches).

 

[Richard]

I don't think he was great, not that you're saying he was btw, nor do I think he was as bad as Streetwise is saying.

Only problem with just taking 94-2000 though is it's pretty selective. I understand why you do so, and that's fine, I just don't agree with it is all. If we took Steve Waugh from 93-2000, I'd venture a guess to say he'd be in the top half dozen average-wise all time (cbf looking it up though).

I'd agree with taking Waugh's '92/93-'01 period as separate from the previous one. And he averaged 61 in that time, which was about the same as Tendulkar averaged '90-'02/03. The point with Atherton and West Indies is nothing other than that the only time he was actually genuinely owned by them was 1991, his first series - thereafter he performed well.

 

[BoyBrumby]

In a naive (and quite probably utterly pointless) attempt to recover part of this thread's dignity, I've always found there to be an interesting distinction between bowlers getting batsmen out a lot for **** all (McGrath v Atherton, Harby v Punter etc) and bowlers getting batsmen out a lot but with the batsmen enjoying considerable success as well (McGrath v Lara).

Bedser vs Morris - mentioned earlier in this thread - is a good example of this. It has passed into cricket lore that Morris was Bedser's bunny (those exact words were used in fact), given that Sir Alec got the Aussie opener 18 times in 37 innings, the killer blows coming in 50/51 when he dismissed Morris 6 times in the space of 8 innings for next to nothing. And yet, when you look that their overall career against each other, Morris scored 8 of his 12 Test centuries and averaged something like 61 against attacks which featured Bedser - these included his famous 196 at the Oval in 1948, his highest Test score of 206 at the end of that 50/51 series and an innings of 153 in the first Test of 54/55 which was to be the last time the two met.

The two were firm and lifelong friends, and there's a wonderful story from that 50/51 series. After nailing Morris yet again for bugger all, Bedser cheekily sent Morris a copy of Don Bradman's book How To Play Cricket with a note that said something like "I hope this helps." In the very next Test Morris played that innings of 206 and sent Bedser a letter in reply thanking him for the assistance.

Well, I'd never heard that story before, so glad you made the effort, mate, pissing in the wind as it may well be.

& it's an important distinction, I think. Looking at cricinfo's list, Bedser (sorry to pick on Alec, but he's the obvious example) got Neil Harvey 12 times in 13 tests which sounds a more thorough domination than (say) Ambrose's of Hick (11 times in 17 tests), but Harvey averaged over 50 in those matches and Graeme under 17.

 

[Richard]

Harmison always had a good time against Inzamam.

It was Harmison who ran him out \ had him obstructed-the-field (can't remember which it was) in 2005/06, wasn't it?

 

[Sir Alex]

i'd agree with taking waugh's '92/93-'01 period as separate from the previous one. And he averaged 61 in that time, which was about the same as tendulkar averaged '90-'02/03. The point with atherton and west indies is nothing other than that the only time he was actually genuinely owned by them was 1991, his first series - thereafter he performed well.

97

 

[Richard]

lol.. sorry about bursting your bubble mate, but McGrath's hattrick was on the same tour when Lara got the 182 at Adelaide...


If you are taking about the 2005 tour, you are totally wrong coz Lara looked every inch the greatest batsman of the generation then... (I know the call is debatable, but he was bloody good and was basically robbed by the umps 3 times and by a couple of awesome catches).

And he was also dropped at least three times in that series... Lara had some bad luck and some good in 2005/06 - for once, it was roughly equal in amount.

 

[GIMH]

It was Harmison who ran him out \ had him obstructed-the-field (can't remember which it was) in 2005/06, wasn't it?

It was indeed - run out, completely ludicrous decision btw

 

[Richard]

97

It was 1998, and it followed-on from his poor Ashes of 1997 - which was also the only time he failed against Australia in full health and during a time when he was succeeding against others.

The simple fact is there's no obvious explanation for Atherton's failures in those two series'. His back condition was under control, he scored plenty of runs in the series' either side of them, in the case of the latter against bowling probably even more challenging than that of Aus '97 and WI '98, so it wasn't a case of bowling being too good for him. He was coming to the end of his captaincy by that time and he was disaffected on that matter, but I don't think it really weighed him down.

Purely and simply, from what I remember of those series' (and that's not in intimate detail like what followed), Atherton was simply in a bad trot and not batting very well. It happens to most batsmen. That is not to say this should be expunged from his record the way '96/97 and '98/99 should be - it is a failure which counts against him. But very few batsmen can score runs series after series. That he had two such poor series' in a row, however, was extremely disappointing.