Vaas vs Srinath vs Lee vs Zaheer vs Sobers

[Streetwise]

Lee

Top - 36
Middle - 37
Lower - 27

Vaas

Top - 42
Middle - 35
Lower - 23


Significant difference that. Thank you.

What happen if you take out Zim and Bangers.

 

[Migara]

Vaas: Tail enders - 63 / 355 = 17.8%
Lee: Tail enders - 79 / 310 = 25.4%

 

[Sir Alex]

Vaas: Tail enders - 63 / 355 = 17.8%
Lee: Tail enders - 79 / 310 = 25.4%

Yeah Vaas did not have a chance to "earn" cheap wickets once he took the harder top order wickets as by that time Murali and other spinner would've checked in. That is also why his SR is higher.

 

[Migara]

Overs per innings average
Vaas 20
Lee 18

(for a point of reference, McGrath is 20, Waqar 17.5)

Vaas 20 - 54 - 1.8
Lee 18 - 62 - 2.0

That is 0.2 wickets, 8 runs in 2 overs per innings

2 wickets, 80 runs in 20 overs in 10 innings

That is the difference if you like. Very minute.

 

[Ikki]

Actually, it's not so signficant. IIRC Vaas takes 4-5% less tailenders than Lee. But Lee has to compete with Warne and McGrath for top order wickets. It makes that difference negligible and puts it into perspective.

Lee and Vaas take less tail-enders than Wasim Akram (31.9, 33.1, 35.0) also...what does that mean?

Gotta love how every little advantage for Vaas has to be blown out of proportion whilst the Grand Canyon that is the gorge between their SRs is repeatedly ignored. The fact that Vaas was a substantially different bowler at home than away is also ignored.

Too hypothetical. The amount that is bowled is much less than that. Ideally you should take average balls per match and then compare

Again, we know what it is in it's most simplest form: Vaas is stronger by 1 run per wicket and Lee is faster by 13 balls per wicket. With due consideration to other factors; the difference between their averages is negligible; the difference between their SRs is not.

 

[Migara]

Yeah Vaas did not have a chance to "earn" cheap wickets once he took the harder top order wickets as by that time Murali and other spinner would've checked in. That is also why his SR is higher.

What I think is Lee is better equipped to get tail enders. Pace and reverse swing. Later in Vaas's career Malinga used to do the clean up job.

 

[Sir Alex]

Actually, it's not so signficant. IIRC Vaas takes 4-5% less tailenders than Lee. But Lee has to compete with Warne and McGrath for top order wickets. It makes that difference negligible and puts it into perspective.

Lee and Vaas take less tail-enders than Wasim Akram (31.9, 33.1, 35.0) also...what does that mean?

Gotta love how every little advantage for Vaas has to be blown out of proportion whilst the Grand Canyon that is the gorge between their SRs is repeatedly ignored.

Still clutching with the SR aren't you?

You say Lee had to compete with Warne and Mcgrath. Vaas had to compete with that one man army Murali (who used to take 10 fros just for fun) and other spinners on assisting wickets in Sri Lanka. Sri Lankan fast bowlers have traditionally been there just to take the shine off till Murali could grip it. Yet Vaas outshoen through all these.

 

[Streetwise]

Yeah Vaas did not have a chance to "earn" cheap wickets once he took the harder top order wickets as by that time Murali and other spinner would've checked in. That is also why his SR is higher.

20% of Vaas's wickets were cheap Zimbabwe wickets though.

 

[Ikki]

Still clutching with the SR aren't you?

The biggest difference between them is the SR...yet it's the straw that is being clutched...whatever you say.

You say Lee had to compete with Warne and Mcgrath. Vaas had to compete with that one man army Murali (who used to take 10 fros just for fun) and other spinners on assisting wickets in Sri Lanka. Sri Lankan fast bowlers have traditionally been there just to take the shine off till Murali could grip it. Yet Vaas outshoen through all these.

Warne and McGrath are much tougher competition than just Murali.

A) Combined, they strike faster.
B) They take more wickets.
C) They are two people which means that if they're bowling in tandem, which they were at times, they are taking wickets when Lee can't even touch the ball.

It's not an argument. Those two took a big proportion of top order wickets which means that naturally the pool of top order wickets available to Lee is smaller. The fact that the difference is only 4% is really neither here nor there as it is minuscule. Even if there weren't the above reasons the difference is negligible - it's about the difference that Hadlee and Donald also have in tail-enders (~4%), for example.

The fact that you tried to play it off as a "significant difference" says it all about who is clutching straws.

 

[andyc]

Let's try and keep this civil guys. No 'Precam' accusations or attacking of the poster instead of the posts please

 

[Ikki]

Alright, edited, it was a cheap shot I admit. I still reckon it's him though .

 

[Migara]

20% of Vaas's wickets were cheap Zimbabwe wickets though.

Lee was appalling against them

 

[Ikki]

Lee was appalling against them

True. In his 2 whole matches against them he was.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Yes, but Waqar was not consistent across the board like McGrath or to a lesser extent Lillee. That's why he is never revered to the same extent. I also find it troubling how underrated he is and in fact have made this argument for him elsewhere, as well as for Donald, but you're comparing apples and oranges.

Here we have two very inconsistent bowlers so their records are very much alike in their flaws; apart from the gulf in SR and the fact that Vaas is a different bowler away from home.



Both average and SR are important. If Vaas averaged 26 and struck at a career SR of 60, for example, I'd consider him superior to a bowler that averaged 29 and struck at 55 for example.

Yes, Sehwag does own Ponting in terms of SR, and every other cricketer bar Gilchrist. However, batting SR and bowling SR are two different beasts. If I were as biased as you claim I am, I'd be saying Gilchrist > Tendulkar.

Anyway, you're digressing. You claimed that I lied about their home and away form and I proved you wrong. Vaas is way more effective at home than he is away whereas Lee does not swing as much.

P.S. I am Asian.

P.P.S. Use your brain, it's good for you.



2.68 vs 3.46.

This is not ODIs or T20s. You have to take wickets to win. As an opening bowler, that's your job. Not to contain runs.

You proved nothing except that you are even more biased than I originally thought. You said Lee had a much superior away record to Vaas which is a blatant lie. He only beats him on SR, nothing else. Everywhere practically else Vaas owns him. I see you have brought up some mama papa excuses to cover up Mcgrath's inferior SR to Waqar. It's ok, I mean it is not unexpected at all. Gilchrist is definitely better than Tendulkar, Ponting is better a better bowler than Wasim Akram and Martyn is a better spinner than Murali.

 

[Ikki]

You proved nothing except that you are even more biased than I originally thought. You said Lee had a much superior away record to Vaas which is a blatant lie. He only beats him on SR, nothing else. Everywhere practically else Vaas owns him. I see you have brought up some mama papa excuses to cover up Mcgrath's inferior SR to Waqar. It's ok, I mean it is not unexpected at all. Gilchrist is definitely better than Tendulkar, Ponting is better a better bowler than Wasim Akram and Martyn is a better spinner than Murali.

Wrong, I didn't say Lee has a much superior away record than Vaas - although I think concluding as such is hardly biased. What I said is that comparative to each other's home and away records Lee was more consistent. Meaning he took on foreign conditions much better than Vaas who has a mediocre SR for an opening bowler.

You got it wrong, compared the averages, I showed you the SRs and you're still crying about it. Vaas beats him by 1 on average and loses out by 13 on SR..."nothing else" . If anything, your over the top reaction and sensitivity to the matter shows who is more swayed by emotion or bias.

 

[Migara]

True. In his 2 whole matches against them he was.

still apalling

 

[Sir Alex]

still apalling

4 games vs Bangaldesh - avg of 47. And avg of 93 in Bangaldesh!

 

[Ikki]

4 games vs Bangaldesh - avg of 47. And avg of 93 in Bangaldesh!

still apalling

Irrelevant. The sample is too small. Insisting that he would have continued in such a fashion against the two worst sides of his time (and one possibly of all time) is disingenuous. It goes to show the lengths some of you guys are going to point score for Vaas.

 

[Sir Alex]

Irrelevant. The sample is too small. Insisting that he would have continued in such a fashion against the two worst sides of his time (and one possibly of all time) is disingenuous. It goes to show the lengths some of you guys are going to point score for Vaas.

4 tests of utter mediocrity is more than enough to frame an impression of a bowler. He was not injured or hampered by anything. Save that for other fights IKKI.

 

[Ikki]

4 tests of utter mediocrity is more than enough to frame an impression of a bowler. He was not injured or hampered by anything. Save that for other fights IKKI.

Lee played them in 2 2 test series, one where he did well/ok, the other where he did poor. Using that as a gauge is disingenuous.

Vaas himself has had as many bad tests against them, he just played them enough to right his record. In fact, even his record against Zimbabwe is not all too flash, especially at home. And he played them 15 times.

Clutch another straw. You're good at it.