*Official* Australia in New Zealand

[trapol]

At the end of the day Polo its all about taking your chances

Brooms continued lack of performance now has him rightly/wrongly placed in the same bracket as Bell/Cumming/Papps/Sinclair/Marshall and so on

Nobody can argue that he hasnt had a fair shot at the big time and as has been mentioned a number of times already he hasnt looked up to it.

You can argue all you like about it being a different format of the game but we all know that the Aussies (everyone) will bowl fast and straight at his stumps and he has a very good probability of being LBW/Bowled as he continues to close himself off with his feet

Them are the facts

 

[Athlai]

Indeed. Although I hope Williamson get's 18-24 months of batting in the middle order before being shifted up to number three, in the test team anyway. If New Zealand were smart they would bat him at three in one day cricket right away.

But our top 4 is extremely strong already?

 

[Howsie]

But our top 4 is extremely strong already?

Not as strong as it could be with Williamson included. Brendon McCullum has already stated recently that he can't keep opening the batting and keeping, so the most logical thing to do would be too push him down the order wouldn't it? You can't tell me that:

Ryder
Guptill
Williamson
Taylor
Elliott/Styris
McCullum

Doesn't look stronger then batting Guptill at three and Williamson at six. Apart from his debut game Martin Guptill has only played a handful of cameo's for New Zealand, you need more then that from a number three batsmen.

 

[Flem274*]

Hmm

If McCullum doesn't think he can continue to open and wicketkeep then he should move down right away, though with Hopkins scoring some runs I wouldn't be surprised if he took the gloves and things stayed as they are.

If there was a shuffle then that opens a few options (and solves the number seven problem).

Ryder
Guptill
Watling/Williamson/Styris/Ingram
Taylor
Elliott
Styris/Oram/Watling/Williamson/Hopkins/Stewart
McCullum
Vettori
Mills
Tuffey
Bond

 

[Howsie]

Watling anywhere other then opener is a bad selection AFAIC, and Willamson any lower then five is the same. Peter Ingram's gone, he'll never play limited overs cricket for New Zealand again unless we go through some massive injury crisis. Hopkins, well he might have done alright and I stress the alright part he doesn't figure/or shouldn't figure in our long term plans. Shanan Stewart deserves another go but he shouldn't be batting in the top four.

Reckon once the 2011 WC roles around we'll see the squad look something like this:

1.Ryder
2.Guptill
3.Williamson
4.Taylor
5.Elliott
6.Stryis
7.McCullum
8.Vettori
9.Mills
10.Southee
11.Bond

No doubt Oram will be in and around the squad so Styris and Elliott would probably be fighting for one place. Watling, Nathan McCullum and Darryl Tuffey to make up the rest of the 15.

 

[99*]

That side looks very familiar Howsie.

 

[trapol]

My Howsie you do get down on your knees and put Williamsons proverbial in your mouth dont you.

Have you not learnt yet that our domestic cricket is not much to judge anyone from? He was a dismal failure on his only overseas tours so has a lot of learning to do.

He is going to be nowhere near this BCs ODI/T20 team and rightly so as he's not as good as the guys in there. After the next ODI World Cup he will but not until then

You want see him in there in front of either Styris or Elliott

As for Williamson another winter of A tours and Emerging players tours are whats needed to see whether he has improved from last year or not

 

[Howsie]

Location, London. Say's it all really. So what if he failed in India, Neil Broom and Peter Fulton were scoring 100's on that tour and yet you think Broom's pathetic. Four innings in India doesn't erase two years of fantasic work in domestic cricket.

 

[Days of Grace]

Not as strong as it could be with Williamson included. Brendon McCullum has already stated recently that he can't keep opening the batting and keeping, so the most logical thing to do would be too push him down the order wouldn't it? .

I think what Brendon is implying is that he give up wicketkeeping altogether in ODIs and remain an opening batsmen.

This throws the balance of the team off.

 

[Howsie]

I think what Brendon is implying is that he give up wicketkeeping altogether in ODIs and remain an opening batsmen.

This throws the balance of the team off.

Yep, and he's not a good enough batsmen to do that. Whether or not he improves is another matter but a batsmen can't be making quick 40's and 50's every once and awhile as well as making nothing in large chunks. Until Brendon McCullum starts making 100's opening the batting I can't see it happening tbh.

 

[Johnners]

My Howsie you do get down on your knees and put Williamsons proverbial in your mouth dont you.

Have you not learnt yet that our domestic cricket is not much to judge anyone from? He was a dismal failure on his only overseas tours so has a lot of learning to do.

He is going to be nowhere near this BCs ODI/T20 team and rightly so as he's not as good as the guys in there. After the next ODI World Cup he will but not until then

You want see him in there in front of either Styris or Elliott

As for Williamson another winter of A tours and Emerging players tours are whats needed to see whether he has improved from last year or not

Trapol, there's no need for these sort of comments, don't do it again. It's comments like this that are often the catalysts for debates heading away from the topic at hand and becoming personal.

 

[trapol]

Yes Howsie you are correct and my view is tainted as i dont obviously see as much of him as you do.

However i am basing this on numerous examples of people who have both dominated domestic NZ cricket and done well international and vice versa. So im not as bullish as you about his success in the shorter versions of the game.

He is very slight and has no power, considering you are asking him to bat 3 in the ODI side you asking him to play a role that means hitting the ball over the top and to and over the boundary. He simply does not possess this ability (yet, after all he is only 19 used to facing people bowling 130 at best in NZDomestic) So if you bat him 4/5/6 he runs into the meat of the order and he's not making the team ahead of Taylor/Styris and possibly only Elliott as he is very limited but has performed very well for the BCs.

So no he isnt anything special in terms of ODI cricket and he does need overseas tours to see whether he can handle different conditions.

As for Broom i dont think he is rubbish im just saying that he has a habit of being dismissed in the same way a lot and that isnt a good indicator of consistent success. As ive said how he fixes that i dont know

 

[Prince EWS]

Definitely prefer McCullum opening, but if he reckons he can't open and keep wicket, he should drop down the order. His keeping is a lot more valuable.

 

[Days of Grace]

Agree.

I can just see Hopkins muffing a run-out chance ala White in the T20 match.

Except this time he does it in the world cup semi-final.

But what I like about McCullum opening since Moles was given the flick has been his returned aggression. No more of that 30 off 50 balls ****.

He's the Jayasuriya of NZ. Jayasuriya would come off 2 times out of 5 at the most, yet noone complained.

 

[NZTailender]

At the end of the day Polo its all about taking your chances

Brooms continued lack of performance now has him rightly/wrongly placed in the same bracket as Bell/Cumming/Papps/Sinclair/Marshall and so on

Nobody can argue that he hasnt had a fair shot at the big time and as has been mentioned a number of times already he hasnt looked up to it.

You can argue all you like about it being a different format of the game but we all know that the Aussies (everyone) will bowl fast and straight at his stumps and he has a very good probability of being LBW/Bowled as he continues to close himself off with his feet

Them are the facts

The facts are he was played out of position for the majority of his international appearances and was poor in an unfamiliar role. This can also explain getting out the way he did - bowled or lbw by straight ones - as he looked to be in two minds about what to do.
I am one of his biggest fans, but having in the ODI/T20 team in the first place was a bit of a stretch, when you consider he averaged 30 or there abouts domestically for most of his career. He did, though, dominate the OD scene this year so you can't say he didn't completely deserve a shot.

Therefore failing in ODIs automatically means he isn't up to it in Tests? The mindset you have for Tests is completely different to ODIs. For the most part, you won't be having to constantly score at 5+ runs an over. You can comfortably leave deliveries too, which will be handy against these gargantuan Aussie bowlers who are ten foot and bowl at 200mph.

 

[Nate]

Peter George called up and is on standby for Harris. Awesome.

 

[Howsie]

He is very slight and has no power, considering you are asking him to bat 3 in the ODI side you asking him to play a role that means hitting the ball over the top and to and over the boundary. He simply does not possess this ability (yet, after all he is only 19 used to facing people bowling 130 at best in NZDomestic) So if you bat him 4/5/6 he runs into the meat of the order and he's not making the team ahead of Taylor/Styris and possibly only Elliott as he is very limited but has performed very well for the BCs.

So no he isnt anything special in terms of ODI cricket and he does need overseas tours to see whether he can handle different conditions.

And yet he hit the third most amount of sixes in the one day comp after Shanan Stewart and Scott Styris....

This myth that he's some little string bean that has to push it around to build up an innings is quite bizzare. Yeah he's no Ryder or Taylor in terms of putting length balls out of the park, but he can take a bowler to the sword when he get's going just like Wellington found out earlier in the year when he hit five sixes in his innings of 107* against them at the Basin. He striked his runs this year at 82 and has a career strike-rate of 77, 1.2 lower then Martin Guptill's career stike-rate in domestic cricket, all the while averaging 57 to go with that.

Yeah, nothing too special

 

[pasag]

Peter George called up and is on standby for Harris. Awesome.

Called it ages ago.

Didn't think it would come so soon and not ready yet, though.

 

[Bahnz]

Agree.

But what I like about McCullum opening since Moles was given the flick has been his returned aggression. No more of that 30 off 50 balls ****.

He's the Jayasuriya of NZ. Jayasuriya would come off 2 times out of 5 at the most, yet noone complained.

The obvious flaw in that comparison is that Jayasuria would often go on to post genuinely match-winning scores when he came off, while McCullum will almost invariably choke somewhere in between 40 and 80, usually leaving New Zealand in a difficult situation when he does. He just doesn't seem to have the temperament to build long innings, which is why he's always been struggling to justify his opening role. To be perfectly honest, if Guptill can reverse his current form at the top, I think the side would have a better balance with McCullum coming in down the order to take advantage of the powerplay. It would also put less stress on his batting and allow him to focus on his keeping more, which in my opinion, is just as important.

 

[Kylez]

Peter George called up and is on standby for Harris. Awesome.

Best news, should be a great experience for him.