Richards v Tendulkar - ODIs

[The Sean]

But you cannot claim it the other way round too,as has been done in this thread recently.

I hadn't seen the exact opposite thing claimed (ie that Viv would definitely have been as successful over 450+ ODIs as Sachin has), but if it has then I would agree with you that it's also impossible to be certain of that.

 

[vcs]

Both Sachin and Viv have excellent ODI bowling statistics as well, Viv slightly better. Always thought Sachin's ODI bowling was underrated and Ganguly did not use him enough.

 

[The Sean]

Not that it really matters to this particular debate, but Viv was for a long time the only man ever to score a century and take a 5-for in a ODI.

 

[Pratters]

Both Sachin and Viv have excellent ODI bowling statistics as well, Viv slightly better. Always thought Sachin's ODI bowling was underrated and Ganguly did not use him enough.

Yeah he was underused as a bowler. If he had given bowling more thought, he could have been a top class leg spinner or a reasonable offie or medium bowler. I have seen his leg spinners really turn square. Has won so many matches for India with the ball.

 

[GIMH]

Not that it really matters to this particular debate, but Viv was for a long time the only man ever to score a century and take a 5-for in a ODI.

Correct me if I'm wrong Sean, but I think what you're basically saying is that this thread should actually be Richards V Collingwood?

 

[Cevno]

It is Viv Richard's Strike Rate v Tendulkar's consistency over the years IMO and I take Richards because the Strike Rate differential especially considering the era and fielding restrictions and the era was unfathomable.

Actually Tendulkar's strike rate is not that bad too.Specially when you consider the nineties when not many people had that great a strike rate.It is only recently that the strike rates are going haywire.


http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2159871-post147.html

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2159883-post154.html

I explained it in this post that Strike rate factor is not so much relevant as has been made to look to offset the Longevity argument.

Even Sir alex elaborate that in couple of posts ,one is this.

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2159872-post148.html

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/2159887-post157.html

 

[jeevan]

Has the pressure Tendulkar had both of a billion people and playing in a way weaker team,when your wicket was the decider (for most of the career) been mentioned yet?

There was no way that had Viv been in Tendulkar's era ,and had all the media attention,fan attention ,money Tendulkar has ,that he would have been able to concentrate for so long like Tendulkar has.
Even back in his time his off field activities were a bit suspect.(Neena gupta and all)

There is very less chance, had he been in Tendulkar's shoes ,that he would have played as long as tendulkar with respect to motivation for the game, specially after so mnay injuries in this era of continous cricket.And that he would have been not distracted by oiff the field stuff with the popstar culture that has more come into the game.

This is not true. For the majority of tests he has played, Tendulkar has had Dravid coming before him and Ganguly,Laxman after (all 3 debuted in 96). Dravid took the brunt of opener failures. When Sachin started, there was Sidhu, Azhar and for about 3 years Shastri.

Especially in the periods where the opening pair has been settled (brief periods of Srikanth-Sidhu /Jaffer-Karthik/Jaffer-Sehwag/ Sehwag-Chopra and certainly now with Sehwag-Gambhir) SRT has had almost the perfect team circumstances around him in the batting order. Only for a few years in mid-90 the middle order around him (Kambli,Azhar,Manjrekar,Jadeja) was less than stellar and was soon fixed with what we have almost to this day.

 

[Pratters]

This is not true. For the majority of tests he has played, Tendulkar has had Dravid coming before him and Ganguly,Laxman after (all 3 debuted in 96). Dravid took the brunt of opener failures. When Sachin started, there was Sidhu, Azhar and for about 3 years Shastri.

Especially in the periods where the opening pair has been settled (brief periods of Srikanth-Sidhu /Jaffer-Karthik/Jaffer-Sehwag/ Sehwag-Chopra and certainly now with Sehwag-Gambhir) SRT has had almost the perfect team circumstances around him in the batting order. Only for a few years in mid-90 the middle order around him (Kambli,Azhar,Manjrekar,Jadeja) was less than stellar and was soon fixed with what we have almost to this day.

Look at India's overseas records in the 90s. How many times were India 30 or 40 for 2. MANY. Dravid and Tendulkar BOTH bore the brunt of lack of openers abroad in test matches and it is their great batting ability that they still maintain such a high over all career test average.

 

[Pratters]

Actually Tendulkar's strike rate is not that bad too.Specially when you consider the nineties when not many people had that great a strike rate.It is only recently that the strike rates are going haywire.

The S/R of Richards in his era in ODIs is like Sehwag in tests in the current era. Nothing really compares.

 

[NYLove78]

This is true. Tendulkar had a very average start to his ODI career and scored his first century after many, many matches. His average from that point on would be far more specfacular 47-52ish.

Not really.

SRT vs WI/Aus/Eng/SA/Pak/NZ in WI/Aus/Eng/SA/NZ from 21 Sep 1994 till now
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
119 4000 163* 36.36 5

SRT vs WI/Aus/Eng/SA/Pak/NZ/SL from 21 Sep 1994 till end-1999 (before tracks got extra flat)
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
57 1564 84 29.50 0

SRT vs all non-minnows (same set as above) from 21 Sep 1994 (at 21+) till date in all countries
Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100
310 12856 200* 45.75 35

And this as I have been saying in almost every post, when Richards played in an era of much more difficult pitches, without even a helmet, with no restrictions on bowlers, against more destructive fast bowling.

Also in this filter I have placed no restriction on the venues (included super-flat tracks of Ind, Pak, Sharjah etc) or on period (included matches from after 1999 when tracks got "extra-flat"). However I excluded all the minnows thus taking only WI, Aus, Eng, SA, Pak, NZ and SL. Still the King is comfortably ahead.

 

[Pratters]

Why do you exclude the minnows. Include the minnows and you would have an average of 47-52 which was my point. I talked about CAREER average, not NON minnow average.

 

[NYLove78]

Has the pressure Tendulkar had both of a billion people and playing in a way weaker team,when your wicket was the decider (for most of the career) been mentioned yet?

There was no way that had Viv been in Tendulkar's era ,and had all the media attention,fan attention ,money Tendulkar has ,that he would have been able to concentrate for so long like Tendulkar has.
Even back in his time his off field activities were a bit suspect.(Neena gupta and all)

There is very less chance, had he been in Tendulkar's shoes ,that he would have played as long as tendulkar with respect to motivation for the game, specially after so mnay injuries in this era of continous cricket.And that he would have been not distracted by oiff the field stuff with the popstar culture that has more come into the game.

Yeah it was a lot of pressure pocketing the $ 8 mil to $ 10 mil SRT was/is making each year - Viv and his whole team put together did not have to pocket that of money - Must have been very hard for SRT that.

Not to mention the burden of asking for tax waiver on free cars - lot of pressure that - something that Viv did not have to shoulder.

 

[NYLove78]

Why do you exclude the minnows. Include the minnows and you would have an average of 47-52 which was my point. I talked about CAREER average, not NON minnow average.

I would include minnows if I compared with Lara or Ponting or Steve Waugh from 1990 onwards.

We are not taking the natural conditions into account, or that the subcontinental pitches were even better to bat in the 90s/00s, not to mention that I am taking into account this decade (which is a matter of controversy here). Now you want the minnows included as well. Don't you think that is too many a freebie to SRT?

 

[Uppercut]

Has the pressure Tendulkar had both of a billion people and playing in a way weaker team,when your wicket was the decider (for most of the career) been mentioned yet?

Viv faced Jeff Thomson without a helmet mate. I'm sure he could have dealt.

 

[Cevno]

This is not true. For the majority of tests he has played, Tendulkar has had Dravid coming before him and Ganguly,Laxman after (all 3 debuted in 96). Dravid took the brunt of opener failures. When Sachin started, there was Sidhu, Azhar and for about 3 years Shastri.

Especially in the periods where the opening pair has been settled (brief periods of Srikanth-Sidhu /Jaffer-Karthik/Jaffer-Sehwag/ Sehwag-Chopra and certainly now with Sehwag-Gambhir) SRT has had almost the perfect team circumstances around him in the batting order. Only for a few years in mid-90 the middle order around him (Kambli,Azhar,Manjrekar,Jadeja) was less than stellar and was soon fixed with what we have almost to this day.

I thought we were talking about ODI'S in this thread.

Only Ganguly from that list was one who supported Tendulkar in the ODI team For a decent period.Dravid was not as good a ODI batsmen as he was a test batsmen.
For most part of his ODI career ,Tnedulkar had to rely on the likes of Jadeja and Mongia for most part.Though i would say the the test argument is debatable too,but it is not for this thread.

Not too forget he never had the cushion of the bowling attack VIV had where even if the batting failed ,the bowling could bail out.And the pitches could be prepared accordingly.

 

[NYLove78]

I thought we were talking about ODI'S in this thread.

Only Ganguly from that list was one who supported Tendulkar in the ODI team For a decent period.Dravid was not as good a ODI batsmen as he was a test batsmen.
For most part of his ODI career ,Tnedulkar had to rely on the likes of Jadeja and Mongia for most part.Though i would say the the test argument is debatable too,but it is not for this thread.

Not too forget he never had the cushion of the bowling attack VIV had where even if the batting failed ,the bowling could bail out.And the pitches could be prepared accordingly.

Let's not talk too much of SRT's unenviable record against the best of his era on their home turf. Should I go back to Page 31 and bring them back. Not everybody here has selective amnesia.

 

[Pratters]

I would include minnows if I compared with Lara or Ponting or Steve Waugh from 1990 onwards.

We are not taking the natural conditions into account, or that the subcontinental pitches were even better to bat in the 90s/00s, not to mention that I am taking into account this decade (which is a matter of controversy here). Now you want the minnows included as well. Don't you think that is too many a freebie to SRT?

And you would take nothing out of Viv's record? He averages 55 v Sri Lanka in 11 games out of his 187 and you would have to decrease Viv's average too. I didn't decrease either of the player's averages.

Viv's average stands out for being 47 in a low scoring era.

In the same vein, Tendulkar's average stands out for being 45 after so many matches.

And I rate Richards>Tendulkar in ODIs just fyi.

 

[Cevno]

Viv faced Jeff Thomson without a helmet mate. I'm sure he could have dealt.

So what's to say Tendulkar wouldn't have done the same?

He has faced the likes of Lee ,Akthar, Tait, Malinga ,Donald ,Akram,Younis etc.. who all were pretty quick bowlers.

Btw,Helmets were available during Viv's Time as far as i am aware.

 

[Cevno]

Yeah it was a lot of pressure pocketing the $ 8 mil to $ 10 mil SRT was/is making each year - Viv and his whole team put together did not have to pocket that of money - Must have been very hard for SRT that.

Not to mention the burden of asking for tax waiver on free cars - lot of pressure that - something that Viv did not have to shoulder.

It is the same money that turns heads and brings immense attention onto you.

If you are pocketing the money Tendulkar has been ,what is the motivation he has got to continue playing through a period where there were calls for him to retire,where he was booed on his home ground of Wankhede ?There is very less motivation to play on for 20 years with the numerous injuries and risks you have to face.

As has been shown in many cases in football,it is very easy to get carried away after 5 at most 10 years at the top and enjoy the "good life" loose your fitness and just relax as u are set for life.
Specially when you are under constant media glare,where every one of your shot is cursed at by millions of people ,debated by countless "experts" and even when u score big and team does not win (due to others) you are criticised.And when u cannot even leave your home without being mobbed by people .

 

[Cevno]

Let's not talk too much of SRT's unenviable record against the best of his era on their home turf. Should I go back to Page 31 and bring them back. Not everybody here has selective amnesia.

Should i go back then to the several posts where such examples were put on the other side as well with selective use of stats ,and to several posts where u were criticised and proved to be using selective stats and wrong assumptions.