Will West indies and Pakistan ever recover?

[Faisal1985]

Pak has already started to recover............

 

[G.I.Joe]

 

[WindieWeathers]

Not comparing anything, simply stating the fact who had the best figures in the tournament, you cannot decide which games count and which games don't in order to get your man to the top of the best analysis list!!

Didn't you say you were "leaving" the conversation? The FACT is one game actually meant something and the other was dead match, dead matches tend to produce such crazy figures, anyway we're comparing Hazlewood and Holder and the bottom line is Holder had better figures than him in a single innings.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Sorry, but how exactly do any of those show proof of success?

So Aamer wasn't a success against Australia? and Parnell didn't do well in India? they've played test cricket and have taken to it like a duck to water, which proves that given a young bowler a go isn't as bad as people think, what they achieve in their next test matches is anyones guess but one would imagine that they'll only get better with experience.

 

[WindieWeathers]

So windie, geniune question, so if the WI selectors decide to take a punt and pick Gabriel and/or Johnson for the SA Tests, and naturally they would be targetted by Smith, Amla, Kallis etc., they get spanked all over the park and go for more then 4 runs an over and fail to pick up many wickets, would you say it was a good selection? In Australia, they are not afraid to pick younger players, but generally they have done a bit to justify selection.

The other thing with Roach is, whilst he does have the talent and the abilities to be a very successful Test bowler (the Australian poster Top Cat, who knows a thing or two about cricket, has topped him to take 400 Test wickets), at this present moment, I wouldn't say he is Test standard. He took 7 wickets at 51 in the Australian Test series, he has the tools and the talent (and hopefully injury free), but at no stage did he run through the team. I think in time he will be something special. The other thing that got me thinking is that, if the players strike v Bangladesh didn't happen, would Roach have been picked for that series and the tour of Australia? I guess he was in the right place at the right time and now he has a healthy IPL contract, good luck to the lad.

But I also can't let you go on Deonarine, a score of 80 v Australia doesn't suddenly make him Test standard on one innings alone, maybe I will change my mind if he were to score some big centuries v South Africa.

These guys have played a few tests matches and done well, what more could you ask from Deonarine and Roach? especially in AUSTRALIA? with more experience at that level i would think they'll only get better, as for your first question, we'll you win some, you lose some, we took a chance on Taylor when we was around 18 and he's done bloody well, we took a chance on Roach at 20 and he's making a name for himself, the guys i've talked about like Holder, Gabriel and Johnson have all got that thing called TALENT, i believe there's no better person to mould that than Ottis Gibson.

 

[marc71178]

So Aamer wasn't a success against Australia? and Parnell didn't do well in India? they've played test cricket and have taken to it like a duck to water, which proves that given a young bowler a go isn't as bad as people think, what they achieve in their next test matches is anyones guess but one would imagine that they'll only get better with experience.

8 wickets @ 40 suggests that Aamer wasn't a success.
3 wickets @ 64 isn't what I'd call doing well.

they've played test cricket and have taken to it like a duck to water, which proves that given a young bowler a go isn't as bad as people think

In what way are those figure not bad? And if that's ducks to water then what's a bad start?

what they achieve in their next test matches is anyones guess but one would imagine that they'll only get better with experience.

I hope for both of their sakes they do improve or their careers will be very truncated.

 

[NasserFan207]

Aamer was Pakistan's one bright spark in Australia. A young fast bowler getting up to 90 mph, who really troubled Australia's best batsman, in foreign conditions.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Aamer was Pakistan's one bright spark in Australia. A young fast bowler getting up to 90 mph, who really troubled Australia's best batsman.

EXACTLY!!!.. but people wanna act like he was crap or something just to suit their argument!! .

 

[Faisal1985]

Aamer was Pakistan's one bright spark in Australia. A young fast bowler getting up to 90 mph, who really troubled Australia's best batsman, in foreign conditions.

Remember his spell in Melbourne....that was a hint of brilliance in him. But he has a long way to go.....and has to be consistent in all conditions.

For argument sakes it is fair to say that other then that spell he has not been "Brilliant" he has taken those early break throughs in NZ but over all you can't quite argue that he is a "brilliant" bowler....but he sure has great potential to be one in the future.

Moreover his spat with Umar Gul has shown that the fame might be going to his head too and one can only hope that he keeps his head down and works harder at his bowling.

 

[WindieWeathers]

8 wickets @ 40 suggests that Aamer wasn't a success.
3 wickets @ 64 isn't what I'd call doing well.

Erm HE'S 17 YEARS OLD!!! what did you expect from him exactly?

In what way are those figure not bad? And if that's ducks to water then what's a bad start?

Did you actually watch the series? he gave the likes of Ponting hell and took wickets.

I hope for both of their sakes they do improve

You could have fooled me!!.

 

[Cruxdude]

Aamer looked excellent through the series. Parnell though was pretty ordinary, but bowling quick in India is tough especially if you are so young in international cricket.

 

[andyc]

Didn't you say you were "leaving" the conversation? The FACT is one game actually meant something and the other was dead match, dead matches tend to produce such crazy figures, anyway we're comparing Hazlewood and Holder and the bottom line is Holder had better figures than him in a single innings.

It was a play-off game tbf, not just a dead rubber.

 

[marc71178]

Erm HE'S 17 YEARS OLD!!! what did you expect from him exactly?

A lot better return than that if he's going to be called a success, that's for sure.

 

[WindieWeathers]

A lot better return than that if he's going to be called a success, that's for sure.

Yeah because there's loads of 17 year old bowlers taking wickets against Australia in test cricket aren't there?!!

 

[Craig]

These guys have played a few tests matches and done well, what more could you ask from Deonarine and Roach? especially in AUSTRALIA? with more experience at that level i would think they'll only get better, as for your first question, we'll you win some, you lose some, we took a chance on Taylor when we was around 18 and he's done bloody well, we took a chance on Roach at 20 and he's making a name for himself, the guys i've talked about like Holder, Gabriel and Johnson have all got that thing called TALENT, i believe there's no better person to mould that than Ottis Gibson.

I don't judge things on the basis of one innings. If he is good enough, let's see him back it up. Just because Barath scored a century on debut doesn't mean he is the next Dessie Haynes, instead will only know in the next 12-24 months.

As for Aamer, well there is some debate as to whether he is 17, and in fact not 19, the PCB just hasn't released their bone density tests to determine his true age. He did bowl I will give you that, but there were periods where he did not look like getting a wicket, and his bowling around the wicket wide of off stump in Hobart was nothing short of disgraceful. If the umpire had any balls, he would wided each and every one of those deliveries that Ponting did not score for negative bowling.

 

[shivfan]

You said on CMS that you were "excited" about the talent coming through, and you claim i'm looking at it through "tinted glasses" Mike? come on man you're contradicting yourself there, if our talent "isn't that good" then neither is anyone elses.

There is a difference between being 'excited' and expecting too much....

If you trawl thru my comments on CMS, nowhere in them did I say I expected the WIndies to reach the top of the rankings any time soon.

The way I see it is that improvements are incremental. Over the next few years, I see South Africa, Australia and India battling it out for number one. Then, I see a second tier, featuring England and Sri Lanka. Then, I see a third tier, featuring Pakistan, New Zealand and West Indies. Lastly, I see Bangladesh down there with Zimbabwe....

If Brathwaite, Holder, etc live up to expectations, I see the WIndies possibly making it out of the third tier and into the second tier. Any expectation that we could be propelled to the top of the tables would be rash thinking, IMHO.

 

[Craig]

I don't judge things on the basis of one innings. If he is good enough, let's see him back it up. Just because Barath scored a century on debut doesn't mean he is the next Dessie Haynes, instead will only know in the next 12-24 months.

As for Aamer, well there is some debate as to whether he is 17, and in fact not 19, the PCB just hasn't released their bone density tests to determine his true age. He did bowl I will give you that, but there were periods where he did not look like getting a wicket, and his bowling around the wicket wide of off stump in Hobart was nothing short of disgraceful. If the umpire had any balls, he would wided each and every one of those deliveries that Ponting did not score for negative bowling.

I should also point out that Gooch made a pair on debut and he did well in his career.

 

[Xuhaib]

I don't judge things on the basis of one innings. If he is good enough, let's see him back it up. Just because Barath scored a century on debut doesn't mean he is the next Dessie Haynes, instead will only know in the next 12-24 months.

As for Aamer, well there is some debate as to whether he is 17, and in fact not 19, the PCB just hasn't released their bone density tests to determine his true age. He did bowl I will give you that, but there were periods where he did not look like getting a wicket, and his bowling around the wicket wide of off stump in Hobart was nothing short of disgraceful. If the umpire had any balls, he would wided each and every one of those deliveries that Ponting did not score for negative bowling.

aah you can blame Mo Yo for that.

 

[WindieWeathers]

There is a difference between being 'excited' and expecting too much....

If you trawl thru my comments on CMS, nowhere in them did I say I expected the WIndies to reach the top of the rankings any time soon.

The way I see it is that improvements are incremental. Over the next few years, I see South Africa, Australia and India battling it out for number one. Then, I see a second tier, featuring England and Sri Lanka. Then, I see a third tier, featuring Pakistan, New Zealand and West Indies. Lastly, I see Bangladesh down there with Zimbabwe....

If Brathwaite, Holder, etc live up to expectations, I see the WIndies possibly making it out of the third tier and into the second tier. Any expectation that we could be propelled to the top of the tables would be rash thinking, IMHO.

"Excited" means you've got big hopes does it not? but i guess as it's now popular to be pessimistic about West Indian cricket you've reverted to type Mike, one has to consider that the top teams you mentioned won't have the legends they rely on today in the next four years, that's why i believe we'll be amoungst the top sides again, we've got some brilliant players in the side right now and when you add in the youth it's bound to pay dividends.

 

[Langeveldt]

Our players are starting to show themselves right now in international cricket, domestic cricket and at u19 level for the Windies which is why i'm very confident that we've got the best bunch, Barath, Roach, Pollard are all under 23, Jason Holder, Kraigg Brathwaite, Yannic Cariah and Shane Dowrich were star players in the recent u19's world cup, Darren Bravo also has international experience, those are just a few i've named amoungst others, it's all good talking about what "might" be emerging for other nations but i'd rather work with real names, i'd be very surprised if other nations have a better group than ours, a player like Brathwaite for example looks like he could seriously be in the Lara mold, players like that don't come around very often.

Sure.. We've also got a few Shaun Pollocks knocking around in the system at the moment..