Will West indies and Pakistan ever recover?

[WindieWeathers]

And saying you don't rely on Fidel Edwards because your've got these guys coming through is silly because they haven't done anything.

Erm well we can't rely on Edwards BECAUSE HE'S INJURED FOR A YEAR.. hence the reason why i was talking about the younger bowlers!! , we've got a world class bowling coach in Gibson anyway so if he promotes someone like Holder i've got full faith he can get the best out of him.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Well he did average 24 in the one day series.....

You mean when he had to play alongside clowns like Morton, Dowling and Hinds? Gayle's average was MUCH worser so i wouldn't lose any sleep over that.

 

[roseboy64]

You did say "years" though Roseboy so i think i had every right to question it.

Yes but that was simply an error in getting across my point.

 

[shivfan]

Wasn't you waxing lyrical about our youth in the 'youngsters to watch' thread on CMS the other day Mike? imo the current bunch coming through are as good as we've produced for years, comparing them to Viv, Holding, Marshall etc isn't fair because those guys are some of the best cricketers to ever play the game, the current bunch have a chance of being top class imo, and if they mature right then i'd be amazed if we aren't competing at the top end of world cricket within four years.

On the contrary, I think you're looking at our potential young players thru rose-tinted glasses....

Our youngsters look good and promising, but not that good. I think any improvements in WI cricket will be incremental, at best. I expect the occasional upset win, at home especially, but I still think the WI will lose more Tests than they win this coming decade.

 

[shivfan]

I'm not criticising Barath, just said all he had done is score a century, meaning he hasn't exactly proved himself - don't get it twisted, I think the guy is extremely talented and could definitely have a successful career in the future, just for now he is currently unproven at International level...

Deonarine is not even close to the class of Sarwan, whom actually gets on the front foot, and actually has a half decent test record (though it should be far better) there could still be room for improvement in Deonarine, but currently I just think he is a solid performer at FC level and little else, I could be wrong though... Oh, and btw, the comparison to Smith and Morton was an attempt to reach that point - solid FC performers but found wanting at International level...

Yes, lest we forget, Dwayne Smith scored a Test century on debut, away to mighty South Africa, and where is he now?

Both Barath and Deonarine have started reasonably well in their last Test series, but both have technical flaws that could be exposed by good use of video technology, which the top teams in the world use well these days....

It all depends on how well Barath and Deonarine respond to the ways bowlers will bowl to them in future. Will they improve or will they decline? I think the forthcoming tour by the Saffers will be a defining experience for them.

 

[Craig]

I always thought Sarwan as somebody who could of achieved a lot better then he has.

 

[Stapel]

Gayle
Barath
Sarwan
Chanderpaul
Nash
Bravo
Ramdin
Taylor
Benn
Roach
Edwards

We've seen this list a couple of times now. The list of a fully fit Windies Team, that might be really up to it!

I won't get carried away by it too soon, but I really, REALLY, do look forward to watching that side playing the Saffies in the Caribbean.

 

[Stapel]

on Edwards BECAUSE HE'S INJURED FOR A YEAR.

When will he return? And Taylor?

 

[Woodster]

And who was that against? Holder did it against ENGLAND!!, one of the top sides in the whole competition, and tbh what has that got to do with Hazlewood?

Btw can you provide a link for those figures?!!

29th Match, 9th Place Play-off Quarter-Final: Afghanistan Under-19s v Papua New Guinea Under-19s at Napier, Jan 24, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

You appear to be losing track of this whole conversation, so before I bow out for good from this particular thread that is going nowhere fast, I shall recap. The signficance of Holder's figures was the fact he had the best figures in the tournament, clearly not, regardless of opposition.

What has this to do with Hazlewood ? Initially I suggested he was a player that will have to wait for his chance to play for Australia, such is their strength, as averse to WI who will throw younger players in before they are ready due to a lack of options.

You then suggested that Holder took 5 wickets in a match, something even Hazlewood couldn't do (although the Australian managed a 4-for). My reply was that Hazlewood took 13 wickets in the tournament, something even Holder couldn't manage.

There is a distinct lack of consistency in your statements and also some serious contradictions, however, you're passionate about WI cricket, I appreciate that, I just don't happen to agree with a lot of what you say, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

 

[Jigga988]

Yes, lest we forget, Dwayne Smith scored a Test century on debut, away to mighty South Africa, and where is he now?

Both Barath and Deonarine have started reasonably well in their last Test series, but both have technical flaws that could be exposed by good use of video technology, which the top teams in the world use well these days....

It all depends on how well Barath and Deonarine respond to the ways bowlers will bowl to them in future. Will they improve or will they decline? I think the forthcoming tour by the Saffers will be a defining experience for them.

Yes, couldn't agree more, Saffie tour will be a defining experience for a lot of them, though their flaws are less likely to get exposed away from home than at hat home as opposed to away from home - especially with the effectiveness of Steyn being negated partially by dosile wickets... Think a stand out performer is to come from those tests - like Samuels proved to be the last time we played them...

Also think it's time Dwayne Bravo stepped up regarding the bat tbh, think he averages ten less than his talent would have him, has every shot, suppose just picks the wrong ones at the wrong time - really think he will be a talisman in the future, as his batting can only improve with time and his bowling is always going to be steady, if not threatening...

 

[maxtop123]

Well, we still do not whatt the side to face the Saffies will be but there is always the possibilty of someone stepping up. The bowlers more than likely will be some combination of Taylor, Roach, Benn, Bravo and someone else once everyone is fit. Unless of course West Indies decides to play Deonarine in the XI alongside Nash.

Thetre is also a warm-up match in Jamaica and it depends on whether we see a West Indies A/Preisent's XI or a Jamaica XI but in any case it is possible someone will make his name. With the runs and wikcets coming from the usual suspects in the FC competition, the selectors may take a few chances if it is a WI XI and Jaamica may see it as an opportunity to expose its youngsters if it is a Jamaica XI. There is also the possibility of Marlon Samuels playing in that game as his ban would have been served.

 

[WindieWeathers]

On the contrary, I think you're looking at our potential young players thru rose-tinted glasses....

Our youngsters look good and promising, but not that good. I think any improvements in WI cricket will be incremental, at best. I expect the occasional upset win, at home especially, but I still think the WI will lose more Tests than they win this coming decade.

You said on CMS that you were "excited" about the talent coming through, and you claim i'm looking at it through "tinted glasses" Mike? come on man you're contradicting yourself there, if our talent "isn't that good" then neither is anyone elses.

 

[Jigga988]

Well, we still do not whatt the side to face the Saffies will be but there is always the possibilty of someone stepping up. The bowlers more than likely will be some combination of Taylor, Roach, Benn, Bravo and someone else once everyone is fit. Unless of course West Indies decides to play Deonarine in the XI alongside Nash.

Thetre is also a warm-up match in Jamaica and it depends on whether we see a West Indies A/Preisent's XI or a Jamaica XI but in any case it is possible someone will make his name. With the runs and wikcets coming from the usual suspects in the FC competition, the selectors may take a few chances if it is a WI XI and Jaamica may see it as an opportunity to expose its youngsters if it is a Jamaica XI. There is also the possibility of Marlon Samuels playing in that game as his ban would have been served.

really?!?! Thought it was coming to that time, the chances of him actually playing are slim though arn't they??

 

[slippyslip]

No.

Not unless the cricket boards of Pakistan and West Indian improve their performance.

We've have a whole generation of West Indian crickets pass through since Walsh, Lara and Ambrose. Only Chanderpaul has become a world class player.

Everyone knows the politics and farce that is the PCB.

I think the administrative failures of the West Indies and Pakistan show the great flaw in international cricket. It doesnt matter up unproductive and incompetent national cricket boars are theres nothing oyu can do with them. They're basically monopolies. The ICC needs the power to overtake failed cricket boards and install competent administrators.

 

[WindieWeathers]

29th Match, 9th Place Play-off Quarter-Final: Afghanistan Under-19s v Papua New Guinea Under-19s at Napier, Jan 24, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

You appear to be losing track of this whole conversation, so before I bow out for good from this particular thread that is going nowhere fast, I shall recap. The signficance of Holder's figures was the fact he had the best figures in the tournament, clearly not, regardless of opposition.

What has this to do with Hazlewood ? Initially I suggested he was a player that will have to wait for his chance to play for Australia, such is their strength, as averse to WI who will throw younger players in before they are ready due to a lack of options.

You then suggested that Holder took 5 wickets in a match, something even Hazlewood couldn't do (although the Australian managed a 4-for). My reply was that Hazlewood took 13 wickets in the tournament, something even Holder couldn't manage.

There is a distinct lack of consistency in your statements and also some serious contradictions, however, you're passionate about WI cricket, I appreciate that, I just don't happen to agree with a lot of what you say, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

You can't seriously be comparing a quarter final match to a dead game played to settle ninth place?!! that's a feeble argument imo, i guess we'll see how both turn out, Holder is younger and i believe he's got more talent than Hazlewood, yes WI are probably more inclined to throw youngsters in than Autralia right now but that's because of the plight we currently find ourselves in, if Australia were in a losing streak i'd bet big money they'd be throwing in youngsters too, sometimes it can actually work, you only have to look at Aamer, Roach and Parnell for proof.

 

[Woodster]

You can't seriously be comparing a quarter final match to a dead game played to settle ninth place?!! that's a feeble argument imo.

Not comparing anything, simply stating the fact who had the best figures in the tournament, you cannot decide which games count and which games don't in order to get your man to the top of the best analysis list!!

 

[marc71178]

sometimes it can actually work, you only have to look at Aamer, Roach and Parnell for proof.

Sorry, but how exactly do any of those show proof of success?

 

[Jigga988]

Sorry, but how exactly do any of those show proof of success?

Just about to say that - Parnell has had relative success in the ODI arena, in tests he's been pretty diabolical, both Ameer and Roach whilst showing great potential and having good spells here and there have come out with average figures from Australia - with Roach's overall figures being bolstered by his trip to Bangladesh

 

[maxtop123]

Samuels playing against SA is slim. However the possibility of him playing for a representative WI XI or a Jaamaica XI is not.

Roach's potential is not in doubt and I suspect that on more helpful pitches he will be handful. The first Test against SA is at Sabina Park and that has been pacer friendly over the last two seasons (though last year it was also spin friendly).In 2008, Powell and Edwards reduced Australia to 17/5 before a Symonds recovery effort and Lee and Clark put up good numbers there. And we remember the infamous 51 all out and the 47 all out in 2004. And in 2003, Edwards and Collymore took five fors. I am interested to see how Roach bowls there and Taylor will have good memories of that ground.

The Saffie quicks will also be interested.

 

[Craig]

So windie, geniune question, so if the WI selectors decide to take a punt and pick Gabriel and/or Johnson for the SA Tests, and naturally they would be targetted by Smith, Amla, Kallis etc., they get spanked all over the park and go for more then 4 runs an over and fail to pick up many wickets, would you say it was a good selection? In Australia, they are not afraid to pick younger players, but generally they have done a bit to justify selection.

The other thing with Roach is, whilst he does have the talent and the abilities to be a very successful Test bowler (the Australian poster Top Cat, who knows a thing or two about cricket, has topped him to take 400 Test wickets), at this present moment, I wouldn't say he is Test standard. He took 7 wickets at 51 in the Australian Test series, he has the tools and the talent (and hopefully injury free), but at no stage did he run through the team. I think in time he will be something special. The other thing that got me thinking is that, if the players strike v Bangladesh didn't happen, would Roach have been picked for that series and the tour of Australia? I guess he was in the right place at the right time and now he has a healthy IPL contract, good luck to the lad.

But I also can't let you go on Deonarine, a score of 80 v Australia doesn't suddenly make him Test standard on one innings alone, maybe I will change my mind if he were to score some big centuries v South Africa.