*Official* Bangladesh in New Zealand

[Bahnz]

Yeah, let's pick Williamson and bat him at six or seven, that will work Broom's been totally screwed over by the selectors during his international career, hopefully nobody else get's this type of treatment in the coming years.

Don't buy that either. Broom has spent most of his ODI career batting at number 6 or above, which is only one position lower than where he used to bat for Otago (although this season I think he's moved up to 4 for the Volts). He's also had plenty of opportunities to come in with plenty of time to build an innings. Prior to this series, in innings in which he came out to bat before the 30th over (8 out of 16), Broom averaged 19.57 with a top score of 37, figures not noticeably superior to his overall record. Indeed, given how poor his performances have been, you could say that the selectors have been unusually generous to him.

 

[Howsie]

So eight innings is enough for people that have seen very little of him in domestic cricket to come to the conclusion that he's rubbish, hmmm okay.

The thing I really don't understand at the moment is that he's been the best batsmen in domestic cricket this season and yet our selectors/coach/captain decide to bat him behind someone like James Franklin, that really doesn't make sense to me. How anyone can say he's really had a "fair chance" is beyond me.

 

[Polo23]

If you're able to proclaim Broom as the second coming of Crowe after knocking about a 70 odd (after being dropped on 20) against a less than FC quality bowling attack at Napier, then why shouldn't his detractors get to stick the boot in when he fails against the same team?

McCullum was 20 when he started playing international cricket and was plainly not ready. Styris was a bit like Ian Butler or Gavin Larsen in terms of his batting and played at 9ish, nothing like Broom, a specialist bat at 6 or 7. Fleming's style of play was poorly suited to ODI cricket when he started his career (again at a very young age). None of your comparisons hold any value.

Broom is 26 and should be at the peak of his batting powers, and yet after more than a year in the side has failed to really impress at any stage. Just because he can bully about domestic bowling lineups and he got some praise in the emerging players tournament (where Mark Gillespie was proclaimed as the next Shane Bond a few years earlier) doesn't mean he deserves a place in the ODI side, especially when there are other players with stronger claims to his place.

Again, none of this is to say that he doesn't deserve a spot in the test middle order.

Me calling someone quality is proclaiming them as the second coming of Crowe?

You say Fleming's style of play was poorly suited to ODI cricket back then, well Broom's style of play is poorly suited to batting number 6/7 in ODI cricket now. He should be above Franklin (can anyone explain to me why he is not?). My comparisons were to show players can start poorly and turn it around, why should it be any different for Broom? Very few New Zealand players hit the ground running when they come into international cricket, it's a pretty well known fact that our players generally take a season or two to adjust.

 

[Bahnz]

So eight innings is enough for people that have seen very little of him in domestic cricket to come to the conclusion that he's rubbish, hmmm okay.

The thing I really don't understand at the moment is that he's been the best batsmen in domestic cricket this season and yet our selectors/coach/captain decide to bat him behind someone like James Franklin, that really doesn't make sense to me. How anyone can say he's really had a "fair chance" is beyond me.

Seen very little of him? He's been on our TV screens for a whole year against international attacks, looking rubbish.

And yeah, perhaps he should be batting above Franklin (who, it must be remembered, has also been in superb domestic form for the past year), but this series was always about experimenting a bit anyway. Broom has had a lot more chances to cement a spot than most players would get, and so far he hasn't taken any of them.

 

[Polo23]

Don't buy that either. Broom has spent most of his ODI career batting at number 6 or above, which is only one position lower than where he used to bat for Otago (although this season I think he's moved up to 4 for the Volts). He's also had plenty of opportunities to come in with plenty of time to build an innings. Prior to this series, in innings in which he came out to bat before the 30th over (8 out of 16), Broom averaged 19.57 with a top score of 37, figures not noticeably superior to his overall record. Indeed, given how poor his performances have been, you could say that the selectors have been unusually generous to him.

Broom has batted above number 6 twice in those 18 innings, 10 times at six (at least 1 position too low) and 6 times at 7. So only 2 innings has he batted in a position that suits him.

Also, he's spent most of his list A career batting at number 4 for the Volts, in the past couple of seasons he's been shifted down to 5 a bit, but the majority has been at 4.

 

[Polo23]

Seen very little of him? He's been on our TV screens for a whole year against international attacks, looking rubbish.

And yeah, perhaps he should be batting above Franklin (who, it must be remembered, has also been in superb domestic form for the past year), but this series was always about experimenting a bit anyway. Broom has had a lot more chances to cement a spot than most players would get, and so far he hasn't taken any of them.

Franklin is rubbish.

 

[Bahnz]

Broom has batted above number 6 twice in those 18 innings, 10 times at six (at least 1 position too low) and 6 times at 7. So only 2 innings has he batted in a position that suits him.

Also, he's spent most of his list A career batting at number 4 for the Volts, in the past couple of seasons he's been shifted down to 5 a bit, but the majority has been at 4.

Your whole argument around Broom is premised on the notion that he hasn't had enough time to build an innings because he's been placed so low in the order, and forced to slop right away. His position in the batting order therefore shouldn't matter if he has enough time to build an innings, which he has had roughly half of the time (I don't count the current series against Bangladesh, because...well...they're rubbish). Time at the crease has done very little to change his performances for the better. What's more on many of the occasions when Broom has come in later, he's struggled badly to turn over the strike and assist his partner, when that was all that was required.

 

[Bahnz]

Franklin is rubbish.

And yet he's averaged 50+ in domestic cricket for the past few years. Which would seem to suggest...wait a minute let me think...I've got it! Just scoring loads of runs in domestic cricket doesn't guarantee you success at the international level! Now who else could that apply too...

 

[Polo23]

Your whole argument around Broom is premised on the notion that he hasn't had enough time to build an innings because he's been placed so low in the order, and forced to slop right away. His position in the batting order therefore shouldn't matter if he has enough time to build an innings, which he has had roughly half of the time (I don't count the current series against Bangladesh, because...well...they're rubbish). Time at the crease has done very little to change his performances for the better. What's more on many of the occasions when Broom has come in later, he's struggled badly to turn over the strike and assist his partner, when that was all that was required.

Since you seem to know..how many innings has he had where he has had 25 overs to bat?

 

[Polo23]

And yet he's averaged 50+ in domestic cricket for the past few years. Which would seem to suggest...wait a minute let me think...I've got it! Just scoring loads of runs in domestic cricket doesn't guarantee you success at the international level! Now who else could that apply too...

 

[Bahnz]

Since you seem to know..how many innings has he had where he has had 25 overs to bat?

6 and he's averaged a still rubbish 22.

 

[Polo23]

6 and he's averaged a still rubbish 22.

And you'd call any player rubbish after 6 ODI innings where they averaged 22? Glad you arent the NZ coach.

 

[Bahnz]

And you'd call any player rubbish after 6 ODI innings where they averaged 22? Glad you arent the NZ coach.

No I call him rubbish, because he's had a lot more than just those 6 innings, many of which didn't call for the mad slogging for which he is so ill-suited, and to dismiss them all out of hand just because "he's not suited to being a number 6" is irrational.

 

[Howsie]

Seen very little of him? He's been on our TV screens for a whole year against international attacks, looking rubbish.

And yeah, perhaps he should be batting above Franklin (who, it must be remembered, has also been in superb domestic form for the past year), but this series was always about experimenting a bit anyway. Broom has had a lot more chances to cement a spot than most players would get, and so far he hasn't taken any of them.

So eight innings is enough to judge a player on is it?

Don't agree that Broom has had more chances to coment a spot then most players would get. Ryder, Guptill and Taylor were all given top oder spots right away, how would any of them faired had they been forced to come in at six or lower when they were just getting into their careers? Broom's been given the same treatment as Flynn received (only worse) and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Polo23]

No I call him rubbish, because he's had a lot more than just those 6 innings, many of which didn't call for the mad slogging for which he is so ill-suited, and to dismiss them all out of hand just because "he's not suited to being a number 6" is irrational.

As I said earlier, it takes almost all NZ players a couple of seasons to adjust to international cricket, and it surely doesn't help when you are batting out of position.

He is far from rubbish.

 

[Bahnz]

So eight innings is enough to judge a player on is it?

Don't agree that Broom has had more chances to coment a spot then most players would get. Ryder, Guptill and Taylor were all given top oder spots right away, how would any of them faired had they been forced to come in at six or lower when they were just getting into their careers? Broom's been given the same treatment as Flynn received (only worse) and we all know how that turned out.

I think Ryder and Taylor would've done fine, they're both naturally aggressive and powerful players who can make just as much of an impact at the death, especially now that the field is usually up for at least a part of the last 40 overs. Indeed when he was first selected, a lot of people that Ryder should bat down the order, to make the most of his hitting potential. Guptill was always an opener for Auckland, and I don't think he ever would've been considered any higher than 3, though I agree if he'd come in at 6 or 7 he might not have been such a crashing success.

Flynn undoubtedly wasn't helped by his being moved up the order from 6 to 3 in the test side. But I'm not sure you could say that elevating an inexperienced 23 year old from a tentative position in the middle order to the most pressurised and important position in the test side, a position that he'd never played at even in domestic cricket, can be said to be worse than batting Broom at 6 when he should be playing at 5.

 

[SmityNZ]

If by "most people", you mean the average man in the crowd, then sure. But any decent top order batsman should be able to keep a medium fast yorker out, regardless of how new at the crease they are.

No, I mean international cricketers. It's gone in, and late, and was probably around 140 clicks. Sometimes a bowler gets a batsman out....

 

[Bahnz]

As I said earlier, it takes almost all NZ players a couple of seasons to adjust to international cricket, and it surely doesn't help when you are batting out of position.

He is far from rubbish.

I agree that a lot of new players deserve a bit of leeway in the early stages of their careers (although our current regular specialists, Ryder, Taylor, Elliot and Guptill all handled the step up relatively comfortably), but at the same time they need to show something to suggest they belong at the international level. For instance, Fleming on his debut scored a fluent 90 odd that showed he belonged at the higher level. In my opinion Broom hasn't really showed anything yet to suggest that he does too. His only real moments of glory were when he clubbed a couple of sixes off Chris Gayle at the death on debut, and when he swipped a couple of ugly fours in the 2nd ODI of last year's Chappell Hadlee.

And again, for the record, I think Broom should be given a go in the test side, especially now that Ryder is out for the rest of the summer.

 

[Howsie]

I was actually meaning Daniel Flynn's one day career for New Zealand when I brang him up. He had that really good season for ND in 07/08 batting at three puttting up some big scores and was fast tracked into the New Zealand team batting at six or seven sometimes (he did bat at five a few more times then Broom has though). Flynn can hit a ball just like Broom can, but both of them need to get set before doing it.

 

[Athlai]

Broom >>>>> Franklin clearly, all signs point to it.