Ottis Gibson quits England for Windies role

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Oops my bad i forgot we aren't playing tests against Zimbabwe, anyway as you said we don't agree on this subject so i guess the debate is done then.

Largely because Zimbabwe don't play Tests.
But yes, truce.

 

[shivfan]

So now it's gone from "Holder hasn't played an FC match" to "Holder hasn't played a full FC season"? come on Shiv you're changing your tune here , it's my belief that some kids are just extremely talented and have the ability to step up sooner than others, i mean can you really see the likes of Brathwaite not making his debut before he turns 19? i don't think so, imo Holder has all the tools to be ready very soon, if he does well for Barbados then why not chuck him in against Zimbabwe? i don't think we have anything to lose to be honest, and also is it fair to compare Deonarine and Barath's record to a man who's played much more test cricket than them? not for me, i bet by the time Deonarine and Barath reach twelve tests they'll have a better avarage than Nash, look i've got nothing against Nash but i just think with a new coach in town we should exercise our options rather than just stick with the status quo forever and a day.

I didn't say that Holder never played FC cricket....

I said you're picking him on the basis of some performances in an u19 ODI tournament. You certainly weren't picking him on his performance for Barbados last season, were you? What was his FC record for Barbados last season? Was he the leading wicket-taker in the four-day competition last year?

Let's see if Deonarine and Barath can average over 40 after 12 tests. We can always re-visit this.

I totally disagree with you about a new coach cropping Nash. He's currently one of the batsmen who are producing runs. As I've said before, you don't weaken the team by dropping someone purely on supposition. First, Deonarine and Barath have to score more runs at a higher average than Nash before you can even THINK about dropping Nash....

 

[shivfan]

It does justify it because he proved he can perform at the highest level, watching his stroke play it was clear the kid knew exactly what he was doing, if he's hitting a 100 in the Aussies backyard you really think his form is gonna suffer against the likes of Zimbabwe at home? i don't think so.

You're confusing Test cricket with ODI cricket....

The series against Australia was a Test series. The series against Zimbabwe will be an ODI series.

Of course, in the ODI team Nash is unlikely to feature, except if our injury list continues to grow....

Of course, if Darren Bravo is fit, he's likely to play over Nash in the ODI side, and the same goes for Deonarine. Maybe even Holder will get a run out in the ODI side. I don't have a problem with that....

The next test series is against South Africa in May, and Nash has to play in that final XI, until Deonarine or any other newcomer can state a case for deserving to play ahead of him. To date, they have not....

 

[shivfan]

The same Chanderpaul who can hardly get beyond 20 runs these days? yeah sure , furthermore while Barath done his stuff at FC level Bravo has done well at ODI level for the Windies, something Barath didn't do before he recieved a call up, so you see it can work both ways.

Ummm....Chanderpaul did score 147 not out against England in the final Test of the home series at Port of Spain. So, he had a bad two-Test tour of England. Who doesn't, in May? So, he had a forgettable two Tests in Australia. You're going to drop him from your Test side on the basis of four bad Tests?

A player of Shiv's class deserves a run in order to bat himself back into form. He deserves to play the entire Test series against South Africa, and a decision can then be taken afterwards....

 

[shivfan]

I'll admit this much. It's great to have other people who take a genuine interest in WI around here. For ages it was just Xavier and me and the occasional bit from aussie and one or two others. Now there are actually people who can and want to talk about WI cricket. Good stuff.

Yes, it's nothing personal, Windies....

We just seem to disagree on so many issues:

1) Nash in the Test side
2) Darren Bravo's readiness for Test cricket
3) Deonarine's pride of place in the Test side
4) Barath's early promise
5) Holder's readiness for Test cricket

It's good that we can have a friendly debate on the issue....

 

[WindieWeathers]

I didn't say that Holder never played FC cricket....

I said you're picking him on the basis of some performances in an u19 ODI tournament. You certainly weren't picking him on his performance for Barbados last season, were you? What was his FC record for Barbados last season? Was he the leading wicket-taker in the four-day competition last year?

Let's see if Deonarine and Barath can average over 40 after 12 tests. We can always re-visit this.

I totally disagree with you about a new coach cropping Nash. He's currently one of the batsmen who are producing runs. As I've said before, you don't weaken the team by dropping someone purely on supposition. First, Deonarine and Barath have to score more runs at a higher average than Nash before you can even THINK about dropping Nash....

Erm you said this on page 7

Jason Holder hasn't even played first-class cricket for Barbados yet. He's just had a few outings for the under-19 side in one-day games - hardly preparation for Test cricket, IMHO.

Let him have a season playing for Barbados first, before throwing him to the wolves....

Remember what happened to Xavier Marshall? He was ushered into test cricket far too early, IMO.

I don't know about you Mike but i think the evidence is compelling.. .

 

[shivfan]

Erm you said this on page 7



I don't know about you Mike but i think the evidence is compelling.. .

Okay, so you caught me out on that one!

Please do start a similar discussion on CMS....

We would love it.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Ummm....Chanderpaul did score 147 not out against England in the final Test of the home series at Port of Spain. So, he had a bad two-Test tour of England. Who doesn't, in May? So, he had a forgettable two Tests in Australia. You're going to drop him from your Test side on the basis of four bad Tests?

A player of Shiv's class deserves a run in order to bat himself back into form. He deserves to play the entire Test series against South Africa, and a decision can then be taken afterwards....

No-one should "deserve" a run in the side, they should damn well earn it, if they aren't contributing to the side then someone else should be given a chance IMO, never have i mentioned the home game against England, i've said he's been poor since England AWAY which was about a year ago, and you can talk about the 147 he got at home but even Ramdin scored more than that on those pitches . your a Shiv fan, and that's your business but the fact is the guy is getting on now and it's clearly effecting his game, seeing him try to exercise on the pitch in Australia was embarrassing man.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Yes, it's nothing personal, Windies....

We just seem to disagree on so many issues:

1) Nash in the Test side
2) Darren Bravo's readiness for Test cricket
3) Deonarine's pride of place in the Test side
4) Barath's early promise
5) Holder's readiness for Test cricket

It's good that we can have a friendly debate on the issue....

Yep we disagree on a whole host of things, but this is what these forums are about, debates, although i can't help but wonder if a few cages have been rattled over my "radical views" .

 

[shivfan]

None of my cages have been rattled....

I'm a Shiv fan, as you point out, and I'm also worried that his best years are probably behind him, as I've said on CMS. However, I believe he's a class act, and because of that, he deserves another full test series to prove the doubters wrong.

I just think you're a bit too quick to usher in young blood, and I'm of the view that if a side is too inexperienced, their fragile confidence can take a severe denting, from which they might never recover....

 

[WindieWeathers]

None of my cages have been rattled....

I'm a Shiv fan, as you point out, and I'm also worried that his best years are probably behind him, as I've said on CMS. However, I believe he's a class act, and because of that, he deserves another full test series to prove the doubters wrong.

I just think you're a bit too quick to usher in young blood, and I'm of the view that if a side is too inexperienced, their fragile confidence can take a severe denting, from which they might never recover....

The thing is Mike i think we rely too much on the old boys and 9 times out of 10 they let us down, like i mentioned before the age of our usual top order is 30, 19, 29, 35 and 32, that's four players around 30 or over, i can't see how adding Darren Bravo into the mix would make our line up too inexperienced, hell i'd even consider Lendi Simmons if he does well in the ODI's, and he's 25 so not exactly a youngster.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Okay, so you caught me out on that one!

Please do start a similar discussion on CMS....

We would love it.

You know CMS is my spiritual home Mike , i'll be around when the action starts, i know my old pal Chris is gonna hit the roof over my ideas again though .

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

No-one should "deserve" a run in the side, they should damn well earn it

Ok, tell me how Darren Bravo has damn well earned a place in the side, please. Deonarine, sure, but Bravo, please explain.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

hell i'd even consider Lendi Simmons if he does well in the ODI's, and he's 25 so not exactly a youngster.

Even though performance in ODIs means nothing where Test cricket is concerned? That's cool too...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

You're going to drop him from your Test side on the basis of four bad Tests?

Apparently it's "a bit more than 4 Tests" because he also had a poor tour of New Zealand. It's a bit harsh when you expect better than a fifty and a hundred in 3 innings, with an average over 100 though. Maybe Darren Bravo would have done better.

 

[Richard]

You're the one saying that bowlers don't tend to be "test standard" at the age of 21 so regardless of if you think he bowled well or not wasn't Roach performance in Australia "test standard"? or did the observers who praised him see a different match to you?

If anyone praised him by saying "if he bowls like this all the time he'll be a Test standard bowler" then they were wrong; if they praised him by saying "he's a fine prospect because he's got some useful tools to be working with but he's nowhere near good enough yet" then they were about right. There is no way Roach's bowling in Australia was of Test standard, so thus his bowling in that series at the age of 21 eminently does not support the notion that 21-year-olds can regularly make Test standard cricketers.

So if he hits another 100 against Zimbabwe you'll admit his call up was justified then?

Nope, because matches against Zimbabwe do not merit Test status and being good enough takes a year of performance at the very least.

 

[Richard]

You talking for Richard now? anyways he claims "bowlers aren't test standard at 21"

I actually claim nothing of the sort, though I've long since got used to people reading what they'd like me to have written rather than what I have so that post is no surprise. What I say is that almost no-one is a Test-standard bowler at 21 so thus to pick someone expecting them to be is almost certain to end in disappointment for the selector. It is much wisest to wait until a bowler is a little older.

 

[King Pietersen]

BBC Sport - Cricket - Allan Donald interested in England bowling coach role

Result. Was a shame to see him have to leave the position due to family issues last time, as he was supposedly doing an excellent job, so I'd love to see AD back amongst the England coaching staff. Get him on board ECB!

 

[aussie]

If anyone praised him by saying "if he bowls like this all the time he'll be a Test standard bowler" then they were wrong; if they praised him by saying "he's a fine prospect because he's got some useful tools to be working with but he's nowhere near good enough yet" then they were about right. There is no way Roach's bowling in Australia was of Test standard, so thus his bowling in that series at the age of 21 eminently does not support the notion that 21-year-olds can regularly make Test standard cricketers.

Nope, because matches against Zimbabwe do not merit Test status and being good enough takes a year of performance at the very least.

It was though, He bowled way better than his figures suggest.

 

[Flem274*]

I can't believe someone wants to drop Chanderpaul.

If you do that, you're going to get killed. He's your best batsman by a country mile. Who cares if he had four bad tests? He had like half a zillion good ones previous.

Gonna drop Gayle while you're at it?