*Official* West Indies In Australia

[Prince EWS]

No if England made 480/3 first up and declared I'd rip them to pieces. If you think otherwise you obviously haven't followed any of my posts when England are playing. I've ripped them to pieces for declaring at something like 530 and 550 before. It achieves nothing because unless the game is going to be or already is greatly abbreviated then you will either need the extra runs later in the game or you'll win with plenty to spare so it will make no difference to the result. England declared at those totals because they're not very bright (virtually every team does it though, people don't have the brains to think it through properly and instead just side with what everyone else does). Australia do it at significantly smaller totals because they're think they're so in such a great position they won't lose because they over-rate themselves and under-rate WI. There's no other good reason for declaring as early as they've done against West Indies.

Yeah, I really do tend to agree with this. There's no way the game would end in a draw with Australia only batting once, making 600 and finishing with a lead unless there was a serious rain delay. I'm not really a fan of first innings declarations at all unless it becomes absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Migara]

One could easily ask you the same question.

So talking crap when you couldn't answer a simple query. Great!

 

[iamdavid]

Well that depends. For a batsman who has terrorised the best bowlers of his time like Donald, Pollock, etc it is ironical he gets out to medicore bowlers like these.

I certainly wouldn't say he "terrorised" Donald and Pollock, or for that matter Ambrose, Walsh or Wasim....I'd say he was more or less a middle-of-the-road test batsman against those guys and he terrorised the Colleymore's, Sami's, Craig White's, Harmison's and Kumble's after the aforementioned guys had retired...

 

[Son Of Coco]

So talking crap when you couldn't answer a simple query. Great!

Met with talking crap when trying to make a simple (loaded) query. I'd say the game's still in the same position it was.

 

[Uppercut]

I do tend to forget at times that, being English, you are a slave to that mighty God, 'The Draw' - a.k.a he who is preferable to a loss and thus must be wholly worshipped first before a victory (also know as 'a miracle') can be welcomed into the fold. Once you have danced at the alter of The Draw, if a win presents itself from inside a barrel of muddy water outside a Plymouth hovel a miracle has been born. Its disciples won't know how to celebrate it correctly though knowing it's inevitably likely to result in stables being razed to the ground, men killed, women being run out of town (lets call it 'Adelaide') and horses raped the next time the two teams meet, such is the ferocity of the vengance likely to be laid at the feet of those who worship 'The Draw' when such thinking goes (as it inevitably does) horribly wrong.

And yes...I do know we lost The Ashes, but it's just no fun dwelling on it.

He's right though. You're not going to bowl the West Indies out twice for less than 520 on this pitch (and even if you are, time won't be an issue) so you're going to have to score the extra runs sooner or later. What's the declaration achieving?

It's also interesting that you rip the English for negativity when they beat Australia in the decisive Lord's test with the help of an overly aggressive declaration.

 

[inbox24]

So this cracked elbow of Ponting's retirement inducing or just a temporary layoff? And if so how long?

 

[iamdavid]

So this cracked elbow of Ponting's retirement inducing or just a temporary layoff? And if so how long?

Apparently it's just tendon trouble, not actually a cracked bone. He's in doubt for the boxing day test though....it'll be very interesting to see who they bring in if he misses Melbourne...none of the obvious candidates are covering themselves in glory for their states at the moment, I think if Hodge hadn't retired last week he might've been a fairly safe bet
Going on Shield form at the moment I think Rogers has a decent shot...same can be said for D Hussey and Marsh I spose. It'd be hilarious to see a specialist opener in Rogers in the test side but batting at 3 behind Watson and Katich..

 

[Son Of Coco]

He's right though. You're not going to bowl the West Indies out twice for less than 520 on this pitch (and even if you are, time won't be an issue) so you're going to have to score the extra runs sooner or later. What's the declaration achieving?

It's also interesting that you rip the English for negativity when they beat Australia in the decisive Lord's test with the help of an overly aggressive declaration.

In hindsight, and not taking into account the rubbish we dished up late yesterday, maybe not. You don't make declarations based on your bowlers possibly underperforming though. The pitch isn't that bad, if you get it in the right spots you get wickets. If you bowl poorly you go for runs.

An overly aggressive declaration? When they were 522 runs ahead? They beat Australia by bowling us out for about 200 less than they got in the first innings and then setting an (almost) impossible target in the second innings before declaring. I also find it interesting that Lords is the 'decisive' test given it was the 2nd of the series. What was The Oval after we'd drawn the series 1-1 in Leeds? The 1st Test?

England have always loved the comfort of the draw. The 2005 Ashes series withstanding. Might have something to do with playing personnel though. It might be something Australian fans have to get used to in the next couple of years from our team.

 

[Uppercut]

In hindsight, and not taking into account the rubbish we dished up late yesterday, maybe not. You don't make declarations based on your bowlers possibly underperforming though. The pitch isn't that bad, if you get it in the right spots you get wickets. If you bowl poorly you go for runs.

An overly aggressive declaration? When they were 522 runs ahead? They beat Australia by bowling us out for about 200 less than they got in the first innings and then setting an (almost) impossible target in the second innings before declaring. I also find it interesting that Lords is the 'decisive' test given it was the 2nd of the series. What was The Oval after we'd drawn the series 1-1 in Leeds? The 1st Test?

England have always loved the comfort of the draw. The 2005 Ashes series withstanding. Might have something to do with playing personnel though. It might be something Australian fans have to get used to in the next couple of years from our team.

I think that's the point. Australia aren't necessarily good enough to continually get away with declaring pointlessly early anymore. Sure, you don't make declarations based on "what if we bowl poorly", but it's always a possibility and more to the point, what did the team actually gain from declaring at that stage? I could understand it if there were particularly bowler-friendly conditions that were likely to change (like cloud cover) but there weren't. There was no tangible benefit whatsoever. It doesn't even make a draw less likely because if time turns out to be an issue you'll have to score the extra runs in the second innings anyway. What was the point?

 

[Prince EWS]

Predictably agree with Uppercut here.

The only defence of the declaration seems to be that you shouldn't delay your declaration due to expectations of poor bowling but that's actually not the point at all. There was absolutely nothing to lose by batting on as the only way West Indies were going to score less than 520 in the match was if there was going to be plenty of time left, in which case batting on wouldn't have mattered at all. While the only advantage of batting on was insurance, insurance is more of an advantage than the advantage of declaring when they did - ie. nothing.

Australia declared because they thought they could; not because it was actually a good idea. It was a typical example fo the "we have enough runs" atttitude, but again that's not the point at all if you have a look at how many overs are left are what is actually to be gained by declaring. It's easy to say that the only way you'll lose after posting 520 is by playing poorly, but playing poorly actually does happen sometimes and there's nothing wrong with taking insurance against that, particularly when it costs your chances of winning absolutely nothing anyway.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Fell asleep with Australia 2 down. Wake up with Australia 8 down. Great to see Roach getting Ponting, but this will take some chasing already, let alone with whatever extra we let the tail off the hook with tomorrow.

 

[Scaly piscine]

You should be making declarations based on percentages. If you're one down in the last match of series then you're looking at the best chance of a win, regardless of the odds of drawing or losing as they're both equally bad. In general you're looking at the best chance of a win with drawing as a second consideration. Cricket like most sport can be reduced to percentages, the shots you play, the areas you bowl and so on.

In a typical 5-day match, particularly with a team like Australia where the games progress quickly (aggressive batsmen/bowlers) that is conservative in enforcing the follow-on the percentages are in favour of going well beyond 500. By getting extra runs you don't convert potential wins into draws (unless as I said before you get lots of time lost or the opposition bizarrely scores at 1 an over). You do convert some losses into draws/wins through scenarios like what has happened in this match. Australia are what 1.16 to win, 5 for a WI win, draw dependent on highly improbable weather/act of god. If you add on a chunk of runs that balance tilts even more in favour of Australia, without a doubt - if you add on a big chunk of runs and lose some time then it tilts more - with the draw coming in dependent on Australia's declaration. Note also that the runs scored at the end of the first innings would be scored at a superior rate to runs scored at the end of the second innings. Other things to consider are with a bigger first innings total Australia could bat more freely in their second innings or be in a better position to enforce the follow on.

 

[Smudge]

Haha, was more a reference to who our friend is supposed to be.

But anyway, pots and kettles.

Go on, carry on then. Or are you up to **** all as I expected?

 

[Josh]

Apparently it's just tendon trouble, not actually a cracked bone. He's in doubt for the boxing day test though....it'll be very interesting to see who they bring in if he misses Melbourne...none of the obvious candidates are covering themselves in glory for their states at the moment, I think if Hodge hadn't retired last week he might've been a fairly safe bet
Going on Shield form at the moment I think Rogers has a decent shot...same can be said for D Hussey and Marsh I spose. It'd be hilarious to see a specialist opener in Rogers in the test side but batting at 3 behind Watson and Katich..

Andrew McDonald still about??

 

[Josh]

Fell asleep with Australia 2 down. Wake up with Australia 8 down. Great to see Roach getting Ponting, but this will take some chasing already, let alone with whatever extra we let the tail off the hook with tomorrow.

Not incapable of being chased down however, time is your biggest friend at the moment. Bat conservatively, cover your wicket, value your wicket - win the test match.

Gee, it's an easy game when you say it like that isn't it??

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Not incapable of being chased down however, time is your biggest friend at the moment. Bat conservatively, cover your wicket, value your wicket - win the test match.

Gee, it's an easy game when you say it like that isn't it??

Not when you factor in what the opposition bowlers will be doing.

 

[Athlai]

Value your wicket? Gayle to hit the fastest Test century tomorrow.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Value your wicket? Gayle to hit the fastest Test century tomorrow.

Now you've doomed him to a duck. Thanks.

Gayle to hit the slowest duck tomorrow.

 

[Prince EWS]

Gayle to hit the slowest duck tomorrow.

I'd laugh if this post doomed him to the fastest duck.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Oh nos!!!1! What have I done?!