Analyzing Sehwag's batting

[Sir Alex]

I can imagine if Sehwag really got going during an ODI against a minnow on a flat track, he could smash the current highest score record and set a new one that may never ever be broken.

When in the mood, it need not be a minnow. He can do that against south africa or australia.

 

[Richard]

I think you have generalised it a bit.

Yes, I have - that was exactly the point. About classical, stereotypical types of pitch - which have been increasingly less the case in recent years.

The tracks in north India like Mohali (of the 90s) and Kolkota (again early ones) except Delhi did resemble the pitches in Pakistan. It is just that India did not have the bowlers to utilise them.

No bowler can utilise a "typical" Pakistani pitch because it doesn't offer anything to bowlers. From what I've heard Mohali tended to be something of a seamer anyway; the FSK and Eden Gardens were your classical Indian turner, like the Wankhede or Chepauk.

You may also check the number of Pakistani batsmen who have done well in india and vice versa and this is mainly because of the easiness of adaptability in the two countries.

Pakistan batsmen have tended to be poor players of spin so it's no surprise they've struggled in India; Indian batsmen have struggled in Pakistan because of the quality of Pakistani seam and the fact that sometimes the normally lifeless decks have been deliberately transformed into seamers to maximise Pakistan's advantage in terms of seam.

And as I say, all that's changed in recent years. Most Tests between the two since the resumption of Test cricket in 2003/04 have been run-fests, with batsmen of both sides cashing-in constantly in both countries.

Anyway what I was trying to say is that Pietersen has by and large struggled against quality spin bowling in assisting conditions. His figures in Sri Lanka and Pakistan are good proof of that also barring one hundred on a easy track, he has struggled in India too.

Nah, the pitches Pietersen played on in Pakistan offered nothing whatsoever to spin. Only reason he didn't do that well in that series is because he kept getting himself out, which he does with considerable regularity (as do all batsmen - only difference is Pietersen is sufficiently talented that it's always a massive disappointment when he does so before scoring about 158). The Lankan decks (two out of three anyway) did indeed offer a bit more to spin. Only two of the five Tests Pietersen played in India were played on turners too.

 

[aussie]

Subcontinent is not just about India mate. You are fooling yourselves. Look at his performances in Pakistan and Sri Lanka as well.

Richard answer this for me. Clearly you didn't watch those series. As i said it was just a blimp.

Also his performance against Warne then also must have been a fluke I guess. Considering how he was found out by Piyush chawla (in the ODIs) during India's tour to england in 07 and then even Yuvraj singh troubled him.

, your so off i can only laugh at this..

 

[aussie]

You are going to have to rephrase that. I missed your point!

No prob. Which part exactly confused you?

 

[Sir Alex]

Richard answer this for me. Clearly you didn't watch those series. As i said it was just a blimp.



, your so off i can only laugh at this..

Yeah the smiley is the last resort when one runs out of arguments.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Yeah the smiley is the last resort when one runs out of arguments.

Not true. The last resort is to say you're not worth arguing with.

 

[aussie]

Not true. The last resort is to say you're not worth arguing with.

Indeed. Anyone who suggest KP's domiant play againts Warne over 10 TESTSSSS was a fluke is not worth arguing with.

 

[Sir Alex]

Yes, I have - that was exactly the point. About classical, stereotypical types of pitch - which have been increasingly less the case in recent years.

No bowler can utilise a "typical" Pakistani pitch because it doesn't offer anything to bowlers. From what I've heard Mohali tended to be something of a seamer anyway; the FSK and Eden Gardens were your classical Indian turner, like the Wankhede or Chepauk.

Ok your points are valid and accepted.

Pakistan batsmen have tended to be poor players of spin so it's no surprise they've struggled in India; Indian batsmen have struggled in Pakistan because of the quality of Pakistani seam and the fact that sometimes the normally lifeless decks have been deliberately transformed into seamers to maximise Pakistan's advantage in terms of seam.

Although your statement looks contradictory to what you said about Pakistani pitches, I can understand what you are trying to say.

However I do not agree that Pakistani players are poor players of spin that is just not true. Almost all frontline Pakistani batsmen of the 90s which was a productive period for India at home and her spinners, had good records. Saeed Anwar, Inzy, Misbah, Younis Khan and yesteryearers like Miandad, Wasim Raja, Mushtaq Mohammad all have nice records in India.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

And as I say, all that's changed in recent years. Most Tests between the two since the resumption of Test cricket in 2003/04 have been run-fests, with batsmen of both sides cashing-in constantly in both countries.

Perhaps but it does not "prove" that Pakistani players are bad players of spin does it?

Nah, the pitches Pietersen played on in Pakistan offered nothing whatsoever to spin. Only reason he didn't do that well in that series is because he kept getting himself out, which he does with considerable regularity (as do all batsmen - only difference is Pietersen is sufficiently talented that it's always a massive disappointment when he does so before scoring about 158). The Lankan decks (two out of three anyway) did indeed offer a bit more to spin. Only two of the five Tests Pietersen played in India were played on turners too.

Still he got out on those turners also right?

Have a look at this -> Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

All the top 4 bowlers who have taken his wicket max times in subcontinent are spinners. There is also Yuvraj Singh in that list which is lulworthy. Pietersen is not a good player of spin around period.

Also let's see how Pietersen has performed on turners :

1. Multan test of 05/06 - 5 and 19
2. Lahore - 34 and 1
3. Mohali - 64 and 4 (A good knock in first innings although not sure it was a spinners wicket)
4. Mumbai - 39 and 7
5. Kandy - 31 and 18
6. Galle - 1 and 13
7. Chennai - 4 and 1

Pietersen has scored only on flat decks of Faisalabad (drawn), Nagpur (drawn), Colombo SSC (drawn), and Mohali 08 (144) (drawn)

 

[Sir Alex]

Indeed. Anyone who suggest KP's domiant play againts Warne over 10 TESTSSSS was a fluke is not worth arguing with.

10 tests against Warne on non assisting pitches? Lol. I've listed out his performances in spinning conditions in subcontinent aussie.

 

[Sir Alex]

Not true. The last resort is to say you're not worth arguing with.

Well, maybe but it is funny how aussie took the bait there.

 

[aussie]

10 tests against Warne on non assisting pitches?

Yes Warne clearly needed a turning pitch to be able to trouble a batsman. Try again...

Lol. I've listed out his performances in spinning conditions in subcontinent aussie.

I saw them, its not more than stats picking AFIAC. I struggle to believe you watched those series, if thats the conclusion you have derived at sir. Especially where you a refering to PAK 05 surfaces as turners...

 

[Sir Alex]

Yes Warne clearly needed a turning pitch to be able to trouble a batsman. Try again...

What about this, Pietersen has not been able to score in conditions assisting spin against quality spinners?

I saw them, its not more than stats picking AFIAC. I struggle to believe you watched those series, if thats the conclusion you have derived at sir. Especially where you a refering to PAK 05 surfaces as turners...

No sir, I have watched those series and I've seen Pietersen bat enough in the subcontinent to arrive at my conclusion. The stats are just supporting my theories. You are welcome to provide those tracks which I have erroneously classified above with valid reasons supporting them.

 

[Richard]

However I do not agree that Pakistani players are poor players of spin that is just not true. Almost all frontline Pakistani batsmen of the 90s which was a productive period for India at home and her spinners, had good records. Saeed Anwar, Inzy, Misbah, Younis Khan and yesteryearers like Miandad, Wasim Raja, Mushtaq Mohammad all have nice records in India.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Look clearly the best Pakistani batsmen (like the best from anywhere) are quality players of spin (not entirely sure how Misbah-ul-Haq fits into that mind) but the point is that your run-of-the-mill Pakistan batsman has tended not to be.

Perhaps but it does not "prove" that Pakistani players are bad players of spin does it?

Not supposed to - different points. The point is that in recent years most pitches in both India and Pakistan have offered nothing to bowlers of any kind.

Still he got out on those turners also right?

No - he got out on flat decks not because spinners got him out due to any defensive technical deficiency, but because he has a propensity to play the get-out shot. For most batsmen, playing it as irregularly as he does would be a damn good achievement; for him to date it remains something of a disappointment.

Have a look at this -> Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

All the top 4 bowlers who have taken his wicket max times in subcontinent are spinners. There is also Yuvraj Singh in that list which is lulworthy. Pietersen is not a good player of spin around period.

Also let's see how Pietersen has performed on turners :

1. Multan test of 05/06 - 5 and 19
2. Lahore - 34 and 1
3. Mohali - 64 and 4 (A good knock in first innings although not sure it was a spinners wicket)
4. Mumbai - 39 and 7
5. Kandy - 31 and 18
6. Galle - 1 and 13
7. Chennai - 4 and 1

Pietersen has scored only on flat decks of Faisalabad (drawn), Nagpur (drawn), Colombo SSC (drawn), and Mohali 08 (144) (drawn)

There is absolutely no way Multan and Gaddafi of 2005/06, nor Chepauk of 2008/09 were turners. I'd actually say Mohali and Wankhede of 2005/06 were, they were both very good cricket decks that had a bit in them for both spin and seam but not too much.

Pietersen is capable of playing quality spin very well. He hasn't, always, done it (same way he hasn't always played quality seam well and has often not played crap seam\spin anywhere near as well as he should be being), but he is quite capable and there is absolutely no way it's true that he's got a foregone-conclusion weakness against spin.

 

[Sir Alex]

Look clearly the best Pakistani batsmen (like the best from anywhere) are quality players of spin (not entirely sure how Misbah-ul-Haq fits into that mind) but the point is that your run-of-the-mill Pakistan batsman has tended not to be.

Not supposed to - different points. The point is that in recent years most pitches in both India and Pakistan have offered nothing to bowlers of any kind.

You merely said Pakistani players are not good players of spin.
Even avg players are reasonably good players of spin.

No - he got out on flat decks not because spinners got him out due to any defensive technical deficiency, but because he has a propensity to play the get-out shot. For most batsmen, playing it as irregularly as he does would be a damn good achievement; for him to date it remains something of a disappointment.

You are mistaken. Spinners get wickets by making batsmen play false attacking shots rather than just defensive prods. So if Pietersen gets out playing attacking shots, that shows his lack of temperament and mental ability, and indeed a flaw against spin bowling.

There is absolutely no way Multan and Gaddafi of 2005/06, nor Chepauk of 2008/09 were turners. I'd actually say Mohali and Wankhede of 2005/06 were, they were both very good cricket decks that had a bit in them for both spin and seam but not too much.

Again wrong Richard, see excerpts from cricinfo

Pakistan's key bowlers before the match were always going to be Danish Kaneria and a fully-fit Shoaib Akhtar. Kaneria's four wickets, in particular, on a last day pitch that still held no major alarm but offered him bounce and turn, was crucial. "I knew Kaneria would get turn. He has been bowling really well for the last year and has won us a few matches. I was confident he would do it here as well. - On Multan test match - Cricinfo.com

Tendulkar's words on Chennai pitch - ""I told Yuvi when he played a shot off Monty [Panesar] that landed between short midwicket and long-on: 'Wait till the last run is scored. We need to make sure that both of us complete the runs'. On a track like this, when you lose a wicket, it can become hard for the new batsman. The odd ball will keep a bit low or kick up and you can lose two or three quick wickets. Better to finish the job ourselves."

Swann found turn and bounce, reward for giving the ball a tweak, although he had a tendency to drift too straight rather than making the batsmen drive...... Tendulkar century sets up famous win | India v England, 1st Test, Chennai, 5th day Report | Cricket News | Cricinfo.com

Again, there was sharp turn, but the paddle-sweep that greeted the ball was emphatic. As it streaked to fine leg, the batsman ran down the pitch and punched the air in celebration, before being held aloft by his equally delighted partner...Superstar Tendulkar writes the perfect script | Opinion | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com (Dileep Premachandran)

And on the fourth evening, Gautam Gambhir, a mild-mannered man off the field, had absolutely no doubt that a fast-wearing and untrustworthy pitch wouldn't deter India from going for a win. - A triumph of belief | Opinion | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com (Sambit Bal)

Pietersen is capable of playing quality spin very well. He hasn't, always, done it (same way he hasn't always played quality seam well and has often not played crap seam\spin anywhere near as well as he should be being), but he is quite capable and there is absolutely no way it's true that he's got a foregone-conclusion weakness against spin.

He is weak against spin in terms of sheer temparement and skill and I have produced my arguments above. He is a master player of pace bowling I agree. He has only one option against spinners and that is to attack and it often comes out a cropper.

 

[Vikas Bhatt]

Lets face it when he gets to a test 100, it is usually above 150 and will probably get most 300s per innings by the time he retires. From the Aus tour in 2004, all the 11 centuries he made till the just ended Lankan series were 150+ runs including 2 triples and 2 doubles. The cycle was broken in the second test against lanka at Kanpur where he got 131 but the very next test at Mumbai, he got another double century! He is the modern day's Richards probably as a destroyer of bowlers!

 

[SJS]

Here is an analysis that some of you may love and others may hate.

Bradman to Sehwag : Redefining Great Batsmanship by Defying Tradition

 

[Dissector]

Nice article. I have heard that Bradman was not considered a good sticky-wicket player but I had no idea his technique was so heavily criticized when he first started playing.

BTW a small typo:

His 3000 runs had come at 98.7 per innings. In the Test matches he had innings of 131 in the first Test, 354 in the second, 334 in the third and 232 in the fifth

That second innings was of course 254.

 

[SJS]

Nice article. I have heard that Bradman was not considered a good sticky-wicket player but I had no idea his technique was so heavily criticized when he first started playing.

BTW a small typo:


That second innings was of course 254.

Thanks. Corrected.

Oh some people refused to accept him as the greatest batsman of all time till their death. Many different English players were preferred over him like Hobbs by some, Hammond by others, Grace by many. Some Englishmen also spoke of Archie Jackson being a better batsman before his illness took him away from the game.

Bradman seemed to offend their sensibilities in the manner Sehwag does today.

We are, many of us anyway, conditioned to include beauty, elegance, delicacy of stroke play and all kind of other eye pleasing attributes in our definition of great batsmen. I do too but we need to be honest with ourselves and ask why that should be so.

Its true Bradman was not very attractive to watch but that's not the point of sport. Similarly, as I have written, he chose to ignore wet wickets because they confronted him so rarely. Its like a tennis player being confronted by a grass court just once in the entire year and not wanting to build a game suits grass.

Hobbs played most of his cricket in England where wet wickets were common place so his game developed differently.

You will find the second part more interesting and, I think, more controversial since it covers Sehwag's game which is a current situation and people have a more fixed idea about him and his game then they have about Bradman.

 

[aussie]

Richard i need to but in, cause its total madness i'm reading here..

You are mistaken. Spinners get wickets by making batsmen play false attacking shots rather than just defensive prods. So if Pietersen gets out playing attacking shots, that shows his lack of temperament and mental ability, and indeed a flaw against spin bowling.

No its just KP showing utter contempt for joke spinners. You can't dominate Warne & Murali & then have a weakness againts Harris & Yuvraj.

Pakistan's key bowlers before the match were always going to be Danish Kaneria and a fully-fit Shoaib Akhtar. Kaneria's four wickets, in particular, on a last day pitch that still held no major alarm but offered him bounce and turn, was crucial. "I knew Kaneria would get turn. He has been bowling really well for the last year and has won us a few matches. I was confident he would do it here as well. - On Multan test match - Cricinfo.com.

All this proves is that on the last day of the Multan test, it deteriorated which happens with every normal test wicket. Generally for the all 3 test vs PAK its was roads. ENG lost that series to PAK pacers mainly Akhtar, who did to ENG what he did to AUS/NZ 2002. That is bowling sheer pace & defeating the batsmen with reverse swing, nothing else.

Tendulkar's words on Chennai pitch - ""I told Yuvi when he played a shot off Monty [Panesar] that landed between short midwicket and long-on: 'Wait till the last run is scored. We need to make sure that both of us complete the runs'. On a track like this, when you lose a wicket, it can become hard for the new batsman. The odd ball will keep a bit low or kick up and you can lose two or three quick wickets. Better to finish the job ourselves."


Swann found turn and bounce, reward for giving the ball a tweak, although he had a tendency to drift too straight rather than making the batsmen drive...... Tendulkar century sets up famous win | India v England, 1st Test, Chennai, 5th day Report | Cricket News | Cricinfo.com

Again, there was sharp turn, but the paddle-sweep that greeted the ball was emphatic. As it streaked to fine leg, the batsman ran down the pitch and punched the air in celebration, before being held aloft by his equally delighted partner...Superstar Tendulkar writes the perfect script | Opinion | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com (Dileep Premachandran)

And on the fourth evening, Gautam Gambhir, a mild-mannered man off the field, had absolutely no doubt that a fast-wearing and untrustworthy pitch wouldn't deter India from going for a win. - A triumph of belief | Opinion | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com (Sambit Bal).

Ha what?. How does those highlighted quotes prove the Chennai 08 was a turner?. The pitch was got flatter as match progressed. Yes indeed Swann got some encourgement early in the test but its wasn't unplayable. Monty & Swann got NO assistance on the last day. I really dont know what you where watching. You just seem to be quoting randomly from cricinfo to try to build an argument from nothing.

Plus since we are debaitng KP's perceived weakness againts spin as you claim. This is how he was dismissed in that Chennai test.

Khan to Pietersen, OUT, another one goes! Zaheer removes an uncertain Pietersen, whose attempt to pull a short ball takes the splice of the bat and goes nowhere but into the bowler's hands, running across towards the on side, what a massive wicket for India

KP Pietersen c & b Khan 4 (34m 33b 0x4 0x6) SR: 12.12

Yuvraj Singh to Pietersen, OUT, and he strikes first ball to get the captain! Yuvraj! He starts off with an arm ball from around the stumps, Pietersen does not get too far forward and cops it flush on the pad, Yuvraj sets off in celebration before Harper gives it out because that was hitting the top of leg stump

In this dismissal here Yuvraj never really troubled KP. It was the little animosity that developed amongst the two from the ODI series before & KP let his ego get the better of him. That is all.

He is weak against spin in terms of sheer temparement and skill and I have produced my arguments above.

The temperament argument has no validity. Plus if he didn't have skill he wouldn't have been able to reverse sweep Murali for six.

He is a master player of pace bowling I agree. He has only one option against spinners and that is to attack and it often comes out a cropper.

WTF. This comment alone proves to me you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to KP's play againts quality spin. Again there is no way you could have watched him bat Warne & Murali in 2005 & 2006 respectively come to this conclusion.

KP only weakness againts spin is himself.

 

[aussie]

What about this, Pietersen has not been able to score in conditions assisting spin against quality spinners?.

I dont know how you could have seen KP in his 2 tours to IND 05/06 & 08/09 & come to this conclusion.

No sir, I have watched those series and I've seen Pietersen bat enough in the subcontinent to arrive at my conclusion. The stats are just supporting my theories. You are welcome to provide those tracks which I have erroneously classified above with valid reasons supporting them.

Haa. allright sweet talker. This post here to poster Migara about what occured in SRI 07/08.