Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[bagapath]

300 test wickets does not meet my definition of "Crap Numbers" for a start. I'm sure there's plenty of other players out there who would be delighted to get halfway to that.

come on. who is twisting everything to a pre conceived answer here? he is way below so many other names, most of them average or crap in the list. he is not even in the top 10. how much more twisting one should do to make him look like a top 10 spinner in the last two decades? calling him "good" is insulting the really good.

PS: he doesnt touch 300 if you leave out b'desh

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

A couple of the guys above Vettori there were dropped whilst they were on the slide - Paul Adams and Monty Panesar at the very least. Jayasuriya's an odd one... Does he take the majority of those wickets at home of favourable decks I wonder? Surprised Tuffers comes in below Vettori as he's about the only SLA I'd consider Vettori's better.

 

[Migara]

And to add to the list of selective stats......

When you say "non-minnows" did you include the Zimbabwe sides of yesteryear that included the Flowers, Streak, Campbell, Strangs etc etc? Who were actually quite competitive against NZ.

Or doesn't that suit your arguments either?

I am also looking for a common policy. Some time back I posted how minnows can be defined using batting an bowling stats, on the assumption that SL were regarded as minnows 1982-1989 period. Do you want to consider performance against BAN and ZIM or other minnows or not? Why you are evading the question?

 

[Migara]

Vettori started off as a very effective, extremely young spinner, taking wickets and contributing to the developing late 90s side. Being a SLA, he was limited but could nonetheless make an impact on a match, alongside his strong seam bowling partners Chris Cairns, Dion Nash, and Simon Doull.

vettori started at 17 / 18 IIRC. so what's the big deal? Murali started at 18 / 19, Warne 19, Saqlain 19 (IIRC) and kumble also before he was 20.

 

[Flem274*]

vettori started at 17 / 18 IIRC. so what's the big deal? Murali started at 18 / 19, Warne 19, Saqlain 19 (IIRC) and kumble also before he was 20.

There is no big deal. What are you reading into there?

 

[bagapath]

And to add to the list of selective stats......

When you say "non-minnows" did you include the Zimbabwe sides of yesteryear that included the Flowers, Streak, Campbell, Strangs etc etc? Who were actually quite competitive against NZ.

Or doesn't that suit your arguments either?

check out the new list i have posted dude. it is equally bad for vettori. if you leave out bangladesh, he is no good at all.

 

[Migara]

I am reading in to "Explanations for vettori's poor performances with the ball"

 

[thierry henry]

Warne was 22

 

[bagapath]

There is no big deal. What are you reading into there?

when his early debut is used as an excuse to wash away his failures in the first half of his career it is worth mentioning that everyone started early. while it is admirable when a guy turns around early career setbacks into success it is worth noting that vettori hasnt done that much with the ball in the second half either.

 

[Flem274*]

I am reading in to "Explanations for vettori's poor performances with the ball"

You'd be wrong then. He was at his best with the ball in his early years. I didn't bold his age and make it bright pink, you're looking to attack something which was never there.

"Vettori started off as a very effective, extremely young spinner, taking wickets and contributing to the developing late 90s side. Being a SLA, he was limited but could nonetheless make an impact on a match, alongside his strong seam bowling partners Chris Cairns, Dion Nash, and Simon Doull."

Is what I said. Thats my opinion on his early years. Followed by:

"Then he started getting injured and came back with a changed style and was pretty meh at bowling. His batting was only just starting to get going back then (this is in the early 2000s before 04/05)."

See what I did there?

Then:

"Then of course the batting allrounder came along with an increased bowling performance. He continues to get better and better with the bat and has improved his bowling, though he will never hit that 7/fa vs Aussie type stuff again.

Personally think he will bat six for NZ in the near future and will complete his transition from specialist spinner to batting allroudner."

Hmm?

Oh but of course:

"people to pick me apart in 5..4..3.. "

Now please, stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said that Vettori's youth was an excuse for his average overall career performance.

 

[Flem274*]

when his early debut is used as an excuse to wash away his failures in the first half of his career it is worth mentioning that everyone started early. while it is admirable when a guy turns around early career setbacks into success it is worth noting that vettori hasnt done that much with the ball in the second half either.

Read my post to Migara.

 

[Flem274*]

when his early debut is used as an excuse to wash away his failures in the first half of his career it is worth mentioning that everyone started early. while it is admirable when a guy turns around early career setbacks into success it is worth noting that vettori hasnt done that much with the ball in the second half either.

Actualy I revise. Instead of just saying

"without minnows Vettori sucks and you are all making excuses regardless of what you say because unless you submit to my view that Vettori is a part time bowler I will keep talking"

Try reading the post and seeing whats actualy there rather than what you want to be there

 

[bagapath]

here is some very selective stat picking;

in the last 10 years against SA, Aus, Ind, Pak and SL (the best teams of the time and the best players of spin) I made a list of spinners who managed to take at least five 5fers.

M Muralitharan 	38 	66 	2192.5 	438 	5928 	232 	8/87 	13/171 	25.55 	2.70 	56.7 	20 	8
SK Warne 	32 	62 	1571.4 	344 	4606 	175 	7/94 	11/188 	26.32 	2.93 	53.8 	10 	3
Harbhajan 	37 	66 	1854.4 	322 	5635 	173 	8/84 	15/217 	32.57 	3.03 	64.3 	13 	5
A Kumble 	45 	82 	2355.5 	427 	7166 	211 	8/141 	13/181 	33.96 	3.04 	66.9 	14 	4
Danish Kaneria 	30 	52 	1568.4 	257 	4843 	133 	7/118 	10/190 	36.41 	3.08 	70.7 	7 	1
Rafique 	21 	30 	874.4 	157 	2579 	64 	6/77 	9/160 	40.29 	2.94 	82.0 	5 	0
DL Vettori 	38 	59 	1550.0 	306 	4443 	105 	7/87 	12/149 	42.31 	2.86 	88.5 	7 	2

 

[bagapath]

Try reading the post and seeing whats actualy there rather than what you want to be there

hey... not all posts are directed at you... there are others posting in favor of vettori in case you havent noticed... there is still a small matter of resolving the "greatest spin bowling all rounder of all time" issue....

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

come on. who is twisting everything to a pre conceived answer here? he is way below so many other names, most of them average or crap in the list. he is not even in the top 10. how much more twisting one should do to make him look like a top 10 spinner in the last two decades? calling him "good" is insulting the really good.

PS: he doesnt touch 300 if you leave out b'desh

I fail to see how anyone who's taken 300 test wickets (against any team) can be anything less than 'good'. Would I put him in the same bowling league as other players who've taken 300+ wickets?

Well, that would be Murali, Warne, Kumble, Lance Gibbs and Harbhajan. None of these would be SLAs, by the way.

I wouldn't compare Vettori with Murali, Warne, Kumble or Gibbs, but I think him to be comparable to Harbhajan. The stats may say otherwise, but then 250 of Harbhajan's 337 wickets have been taken in the sub continent. In Oceania, he only averages 38. Vettori averages 36.

In fact, by region:

Vettori:

		Wickets	Average
in Africa  	25 	38.60  
in Americas  	8  	26.75 
in Asia 	82  	27.65 
in Europe 	26 	29.88  
in Oceania 	166 	36.42

Harbhajan

		Wickets	Average
in Africa  	22 	31.50  
in Americas  	25  	26.08 
in Asia 	248  	30.07 
in Europe 	12 	34.16  
in Oceania 	30 	38.90

So, Vettori is SUPERIOR in Asia, Europe and Oceania than Harbhajan. So, what was that about ANY statistical analysis showing Vettori's inadequacies?

 

[Zinzan]

I fail to see how anyone who's taken 300 test wickets (against any team) can be anything less than 'good'. Would I put him in the same bowling league as other players who've taken 300+ wickets?

Well, that would be Murali, Warne, Kumble, Lance Gibbs and Harbhajan. None of these would be SLAs, by the way.

I wouldn't compare Vettori with Murali, Warne, Kumble or Gibbs, but I think him to be comparable to Harbhajan. The stats may say otherwise, but then 250 of Harbhajan's 337 wickets have been taken in the sub continent. In Oceania, he only averages 38. Vettori averages 36.

In fact, by region:

Vettori:

		Wickets	Average
in Africa  	25 	38.60  
in Americas  	8  	26.75 
in Asia 	82  	27.65 
in Europe 	26 	29.88  
in Oceania 	166 	36.42

Harbhajan

		Wickets	Average
in Africa  	22 	31.50  
in Americas  	25  	26.08 
in Asia 	248  	30.07 
in Europe 	12 	34.16  
in Oceania 	30 	38.90

So, Vettori is SUPERIOR in Asia, Europe and Oceania than Harbhajan. So, what was that about ANY statistical analysis showing Vettori's inadequacies?

Wow, that's quite surprising actually.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Wow, that's quite surprising actually.

The key is the fact that Harby plays at home on spin friendly wickets whilst Vettori has to play on green tops in New Zealand. Simple really.

Whether Vettori's record would still be similarly superior on a regional basis were the two to play the same amount of games in each place is an interesting one though. However, I think it shows that Bagapath's claim that there's no statistical way to show Vettori is superior is surely a theory debunked?

 

[99*]

there is still a small matter of resolving the "greatest spin bowling all rounder of all time" issue....

TBF only one person has said that.

Everyone else just seems to not agree with your opinion that Vettori is a poor test player.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

But surely career bowling average is the only measure of greatness?

 

[Flem274*]

hey... not all posts are directed at you... there are others posting in favor of vettori in case you havent noticed... there is still a small matter of resolving the "greatest spin bowling all rounder of all time" issue....

Then instead of posting:

"when his early debut is used as an excuse to wash away his failures in the first half of his career it is worth mentioning that everyone started early. while it is admirable when a guy turns around early career setbacks into success it is worth noting that vettori hasnt done that much with the ball in the second half either."

In reply to me, post it to the thread at large.