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Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

KiWiNiNjA

International Coach
all against proper sides, while being in a minnow side
That's funny considering how Zimbabwe weren't much of a minnow back then in comparison to now. In fact, they were pretty close to New Zealand............

Anyways, the stats you pulled out of your arse should have gone straight into the toilet where they belong.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
That's funny considering how Zimbabwe weren't much of a minnow back then in comparison to now. In fact, they were pretty close to New Zealand............

Anyways, the stats you pulled out of your arse should have gone straight into the toilet where they belong.
Why? It's a pretty fair comparison, isn't it?
 

Migara

International Coach
That's funny considering how Zimbabwe weren't much of a minnow back then in comparison to now. In fact, they were pretty close to New Zealand............

Anyways, the stats you pulled out of your arse should have gone straight into the toilet where they belong.
Shows that you have no argument, and has stooped down to the low level of sewage.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Haha. Just looked up Paul Strang. He averaged over 40 in New Zealand, 47 in Pakistan and only performed in Sri Lanka (16 @ 28) and at Home (37 @ 35). Its hardly much to go on, is it?

Too limited a sample for my liking. No games in England, Australia or South Africa and most of his wickets came against England or New Zealand at home. Hardly the best players of spin.

So, different types of bowling and Strang's results are inflated by playing at home against players inadequate against spin.

EDIT: Even better, I looked up his best test result (against NZ at home in Bulawayo) where he took 10 in the match... Paul Wiseman took 8 wickets in the game including 5 in the first dig. It may be fair to say that it was a bit of a gimme for Strang. A spinning wicket and a team who don't play spin well.
 
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KiWiNiNjA

International Coach
I liked Paul Strang too.
I just thought your use of statistics was a bit meaningless, in that it shows nothing but they have similar statistics in a couple of categories once you have adjusted them to suit your needs.
 

Migara

International Coach
Haha. Just looked up Paul Strang. He averaged over 40 in New Zealand, 47 in Pakistan and only performed in Sri Lanka (16 @ 28) and at Home (37 @ 35). Its hardly much to go on, is it?

Too limited a sample for my liking. No games in England, Australia or South Africa and most of his wickets came against England or New Zealand at home. Hardly the best players of spin.

So, different types of bowling and Strang's results are inflated by playing at home against players inadequate against spin.

EDIT: Even better, I looked up his best test result (against NZ at home in Bulawayo) where he took 10 in the match... Paul Wiseman took 8 wickets in the game including 5 in the first dig. It may be fair to say that it was a bit of a gimme for Strang. A spinning wicket and a team who don't play spin well.
compare indivdual stats of Vettori and Strang vs each team, and you'll see the similarity in the pattern. And Zimbabwe was much worse than NZ in playing spin. So Wiseman taking 8 is nt much of a surprise. And have a comparison at 24 test matches how each fared.
 
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Athlai

Not Terrible
compare indivdual stats of Vettori and Strang vs each team, and you'll see the similarity in the pattern. And Zimbabwe was much worse than NZ in playing spin. So Wiseman taking 8 is nt much of a surprise. And have a comparison at 24 test matches how each fared.
At 24 Tests how old was Vettori exactly? And how old Strang?
 

bagapath

International Captain
here is where vettori stands in the list of spinners who have taken 50+ wickets in the last 10 years against non-minnows

Code:
Murali  	67  	121  	4008.0  938  	9951  	428  	8/46  	13/171  23.25  	2.48  	56.1  	35  	15
SK Warne 	64 	125 	3005.1 	615 	8868 	348 	7/94 	12/246 	25.48 	2.95 	51.8 	20 	6
Harbhajan	63 	114 	3058.5 	562 	8751 	286 	8/84 	15/217 	30.59 	2.86 	64.1 	22 	5
A Kumble 	68 	123 	3616.0 	724 	10614 	325 	8/141 	13/181 	32.65 	2.93 	66.7 	19 	5
PL Harris 	23 	39 	839.4 	170 	2289 	70 	6/127 	9/161 	32.70 	2.72 	71.9 	2 	0
Saqlain  	20 	34 	1004.2 	225 	2597 	77 	8/164 	9/178 	33.72 	2.58 	78.2 	2 	0
MS Panesar 	39 	65 	1507.0 	308 	4331 	126 	6/37 	10/187 	34.37 	2.87 	71.7 	8 	1
Jayasuriya 	56 	75 	760.0 	187 	1813 	52 	5/34 	8/94 	34.86 	2.38 	87.6 	1 	0
Herath	 	15 	28 	661.3 	125 	1923 	53 	5/99 	8/209 	36.28 	2.90 	74.8 	4 	0
Kaneria 	49 	88 	2453.1 	425 	7464 	198 	7/118 	10/190 	37.69 	3.04 	74.3 	10 	1
SCG MacGill  	26 	52 	1194.3 	232 	3996 	105 	7/104 	9/182 	38.05 	3.34 	68.2 	4 	0
DL Vettori  	58 	92 	2341.0 	488 	6487 	166 	7/87 	12/149 	39.07 	2.77 	84.6 	10 	2
AF Giles  	49 	80 	1921.0 	372 	5521 	139 	5/57 	9/122 	39.71 	2.87 	82.9 	5 	0
RW Price  	15 	23 	741.1 	171 	2150 	54 	6/73 	10/161 	39.81 	2.90 	82.3 	5 	1
Rafique  	29 	41 	1241.4 	232 	3619 	88 	6/77 	9/160 	41.12 	2.91 	84.6 	6 	0
CH Gayle 	73 	86 	1025.1 	199 	2731 	65 	5/34 	6/81 	42.01 	2.66 	94.6 	2 	0
N Boje 	 41 	69 	1377.2 	280 	4072 	95 	5/62 	8/134 	42.86 	2.95 	86.9 	3 	0
 
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HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
And have a comparison at 24 test matches how each fared.
But how is Vettori's first 24 tests representative of his career as a whole? I just don't get this idea.

And bagapath - your use of stats is very selective. Why last 10 years? Why exclude Bangladesh when his contribution saved New Zealand from defeat? Why compare SLAs with (in particular) wrist spinners? If you put Vettori alongside any other SLAs where does he rank? Panesar in particular fared well early on in his career and has declined massively as players have worked him out. Vettori has sustained his output over a prolonged period and has taken in excess of 300 test wickets.
 

KiWiNiNjA

International Coach
And to add to the list of selective stats......

When you say "non-minnows" did you include the Zimbabwe sides of yesteryear that included the Flowers, Streak, Campbell, Strangs etc etc? Who were actually quite competitive against NZ.

Or doesn't that suit your arguments either?
 

bagapath

International Captain
But how is Vettori's first 24 tests representative of his career as a whole? I just don't get this idea.

And bagapath - your use of stats is very selective. Why last 10 years? Why exclude Bangladesh when his contribution saved New Zealand from defeat? Why compare SLAs with (in particular) wrist spinners? If you put Vettori alongside any other SLAs where does he rank? Panesar in particular fared well early on in his career and has declined massively as players have worked him out. Vettori has sustained his output over a prolonged period and has taken in excess of 300 test wickets.
how do you want to do this analysis? i am not working towards any answer that would suit my argument, trust me. you decide the parameters. any which way you look at it vettori will turn up with crap numbers if you leave out bangladesh i am sure.

Why last 10 years? I thought you would want me to concentrate on vettori's "mature" years as opposed to his greenhorn days! you tell me when he is world class except against bangladesh. the list i have given is the record of all spinners against all major test playing nations in 10 years. it cant be called "selective"
 
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HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
And to add to the list of selective stats......

When you say "non-minnows" did you include the Zimbabwe sides of yesteryear that included the Flowers, Streak, Campbell, Strangs etc etc? Who were actually quite competitive against NZ.

Or doesn't that suit your arguments either?
Neil Johnson was pretty good too. That Zimbabwe side would go damn well these days. Would beat the West Indies with some ease and probably beat New Zealand and Pakistan - at least at home. I really liked that Zimbabwe side back then. They were pretty good to watch.
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Whats crazy is that Vettori has some of the best figures bowling in the first innings of a Test but they get worse in the second innings.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
how do you want to do this analysis? i am not working towards any answer that would suit my argument, trust me. you decide the parameters. any which way you look at it vettori will turn up with crap numbers if you leave out bangladesh i am sure.
300 test wickets does not meet my definition of "Crap Numbers" for a start. I'm sure there's plenty of other players out there who would be delighted to get halfway to that.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Here's my coming in the middle of a stats war out of my depth take on it.

Vettori started off as a very effective, extremely young spinner, taking wickets and contributing to the developing late 90s side. Being a SLA, he was limited but could nonetheless make an impact on a match, alongside his strong seam bowling partners Chris Cairns, Dion Nash, and Simon Doull.

Then he started getting injured and came back with a changed style and was pretty meh at bowling. His batting was only just starting to get going back then (this is in the early 2000s before 04/05).

Then of course the batting allrounder came along with an increased bowling performance. He continues to get better and better with the bat and has improved his bowling, though he will never hit that 7/fa vs Aussie type stuff again.

Personally think he will bat six for NZ in the near future and will complete his transition from specialist spinner to batting allroudner.

Statty people to pick me apart in 5..4..3..
 

bagapath

International Captain
ok. check this out. spinners. last 20 years. 75+ wickets against everyone except bangladesh.

Code:
Muralitharan  	120  	205  	6775.1  1668  16604  699  	9/51  	16/220  23.75  2.45  	58.1  	55  	18
SK Warne 	142 	267 	6665.5 	1742 	17624 	691 	8/71 	12/128 	25.50 	2.64 	57.8 	36 	10
A Kumble 	128 	230 	6727.1 	1555 	18107 	604 	10/74 	14/149 	29.97 	2.69 	66.8 	35 	8
Saqlain Mushtaq	46 	80 	2277.5 	527 	6039 	199 	8/164 	10/155 	30.34 	2.65 	68.6 	12 	3
Harbhajan  	77 	141 	3622.3 	685 	10216 	333 	8/84 	15/217 	30.67 	2.82 	65.2 	23 	5
SLV Raju 	28 	51 	1267.0 	362 	2857 	93 	6/12 	11/125 	30.72 	2.25 	81.7 	5 	1
SCG MacGill 	39 	75 	1687.4 	331 	5436 	166 	7/50 	12/107 	32.74 	3.22 	61.0 	7 	1
Mushtaq Ahmed 	52 	89 	2088.4 	405 	6100 	185 	7/56 	10/106 	32.97 	2.92 	67.7 	10 	3
MS Panesa 	39 	65 	1507.0 	308 	4331 	126 	6/37 	10/187 	34.37 	2.87 	71.7 	8 	1
PR Adams 	43 	72 	1423.5 	328 	4226 	122 	7/128 	8/139 	34.63 	2.96 	70.0 	2 	0
ST Jayasuriya 	105 	135 	1321.4 	313 	3262 	93 	5/34 	9/74 	35.07 	2.46 	85.2 	2 	0
DL Vettori 	87 	140 	3587.0 	849 	9620 	261 	7/87 	12/149 	36.85 	2.68 	82.4 	13 	2
PCR Tufnell 	42 	70 	1881.2 	505 	4560 	121 	7/47 	11/93 	37.68 	2.42 	93.2 	5 	2
Danish Kaneria 	49 	88 	2453.1 	425 	7464 	198 	7/118 	10/190 	37.69 	3.04 	74.3 	10 	1
AF Giles 	52 	84 	1991.0 	390 	5694 	142 	5/57 	9/122 	40.09 	2.85 	84.1 	5 	0
Rafique 	33 	48 	1457.2 	301 	4076 	100 	6/77 	9/160 	40.76 	2.79 	87.4 	7 	0
N Boje 		43 	72 	1436.4 	293 	4265 	100 	5/62 	8/134 	42.65 	2.96 	86.2 	3 	0
CL Hooper  	86 	125 	2110.2 	496 	5114 	107 	5/26 	7/178 	47.79 	2.42 	118.3 	4 	0
 
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