*Official* England in South Africa

[aussie]

Ian Bell hasn't been constantly exposed in tests, he averages 40, only three less than he averages in the whole of first class cricket, and he's only 27 years old. He also has a decent enough ODI record (average of 35). Maybe he's not been quite good enough, or maybe there's some mental issues, but he's been a decent player for England so it's no surprise he gets runs when he plays for Warwickshire. That's no indictment of county attacks at all.

How can you say Bell hasn't been constantly been exposed in tests?. Since he was first exposed in 2005 Ashes have you seen any improvement in his game techincally or mentally?.

Usually in country with a proper domestic attack, if you go back & score heavily after having a bad period in test you come back strong. Perfect recent examples would be Simon Katich & Hashim Amla . With Bell & ENGs domestic attack it hasn't improved his game one iota.

The sad about this is if we didn't poach KP Bell & Cook would be considered the best of young talent ENG would have produced this decade, which really shows the how bare the talent pool is.

 

[dizzy]

England's team

It is my view that any players playing for England should either be born in this country of have learnt their cricket through the school system upwards in the British Isles. Therefore I would not have selected both KP and Trott. I also believe our national Captain was born in SA but not sure whether he went through the system in the Isles.

We are becoming a bit of a laughing stock that we are fast becoming a South African side and this is not a remote idea.

 

[dizzy]

I think Bopara will be a great asset to us in the future. His weakness is when he plays close to the body which he should leave otherwise he will play on as he has done. Against teh West Indies, and I saw him at the Lords test, he got away with this because of luck but also they are not as probing as the Aussies.

I believe he shaped up ok and was not as outclassed as you suggested but he certainly was not as good as we had hoped.

 

[analyst]

It is my view that any players playing for England should either be born in this country of have learnt their cricket through the school system upwards in the British Isles. Therefore I would not have selected both KP and Trott. I also believe our national Captain was born in SA but not sure whether he went through the system in the Isles.

We are becoming a bit of a laughing stock that we are fast becoming a South African side and this is not a remote idea.

Please explain yourself and provide a team which would have played their cricket only in England?

 

[wpdavid]

Please explain yourself and provide a team which would have played their cricket only in England?

Forgive me for answering on dizzy's behalf, but which part needs explanation? The view that England players should either be born English or at least grow up over here isn't a new one, even if views differ on the matter. And yes, a side that meets those criteria would be weaker than the current 1st XI, but I don't think anyone's denying that. Basically it's the current side sans KP, Trott, or any of the other Saffers who have changed allegiance as a career move.

 

[wpdavid]

And there's also plenty of evidence to suggest that taking Harmison overseas is a complete waste of time.

Look at his record in Australia ffs.

Yup. One of the less palatable fatures of this tour will be history being re-written to try and argue that Harmy would have been a match-winner in SA. He probably talked himself out of the side, afaics, when he went public with his views about only going if he was an integral part of the side. I don't blame him feeling that way, but he's in no position whatsoever to say that in public. Ultimately the coach & captain want a squad full of players who actually want to be there, as well as offering the likelihood of performing more than once a year.

 

[analyst]

Forgive me for answering on dizzy's behalf, but which part needs explanation? The view that England players should either be born English or at least grow up over here isn't a new one, even if views differ on the matter. And yes, a side that meets those criteria would be weaker than the current 1st XI, but I don't think anyone's denying that. Basically it's the current side sans KP, Trott, or any of the other Saffers who have changed allegiance as a career move.

I was certain thats what he was implying, just wanted clarification.

Why would there be any problem with that as long as you are winning, I mean yes I acknowledge it is obviously worrying that the ECB have had to go outside the British isles to select players in recent times, however they have found some gems. That is not suggest there is no talent more that the likes of Bopara, Bell, need to be picked at a more mature age as they are talented cricketers but mature slowly. So given time they will be class players. I don't think simply giving up on them is the answer. If Bell does not deliver now and they persist in selecting him, he is definitely very close to mirroring the career of an underperformer.

 

[dizzy]

analyst,
wpdavid has been kind enough to answer so thank you wp. There are so many South Africans playing county cricket, working, and under current rules after four years they can qualify to play for England and I think we have the talent that we can nurture to rise to the occasion.

It also peeves me that KP and many others abandoned SA because of the quota system which may be necessary to redress the balance of years of injustice in a perverse society and the majority of players who initially benefitted were/ are good players and I do not expect this quota system to be operational for much longer.

Trott played for SA under 15 and 19 and as a cricketer I know if I play a game I want to win but when it is country it is different. Trott would say that he is loyal to the English cause and he is really going home to play. I am sure he will try his best as would Pietersen but there must be mixed loyalty.

We have Key, Bopara and many other home grown talents who could be in the team.

 

[dizzy]

analyst,
I am shocked that you think it is ok as long as we are winning as quite frankly it dilutes that victory in the eyes of the opposition and I feel the same. The issue is more imporatnt than winning.

 

[dizzy]

wpdavid,
I am not sure that Harmy should have been included in the touring party as he lacks that killer instinct and comes across as limp. He has not been as effective as he was in 2005 when his game was lifted by a quartet of bowlers who complemented each other briliantly.

Sad to see such a talent go but he was given adequate chances. Hope he can come back.

 

[Furball]

wpdavid,
I am not sure that Harmy should have been included in the touring party as he lacks that killer instinct and comes across as limp. He has not been as effective as he was in 2005 when his game was lifted by a quartet of bowlers who complemented each other briliantly.

Sad to see such a talent go but he was given adequate chances. Hope he can come back.

Harmison was rubbish in 2005, 1 morning at Lord's excepted.

 

[James]

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[dizzy]

Harmison was rubbish in 2005, 1 morning at Lord's excepted.

Gingerfurball,
lol!! and to think Harmy has been worse than 2005 for England!

 

[dizzy]

Panesar

I think Panesar has been crudely treated by England. He has been a match winner, moreso than Swann, and he seems have been discarded a bit flippantly. I had also noted that Rasid having performed really well in arecent ODI was dropped for the following two,,,bizarre.

 

[GIMH]

Harmison was rubbish in 2005, 1 morning at Lord's excepted.

YouTube - Steve Harmison Vs Michael Clarke

 

[Scaly piscine]

I think Panesar has been crudely treated by England. He has been a match winner, moreso than Swann, and he seems have been discarded a bit flippantly. I had also noted that Rasid having performed really well in arecent ODI was dropped for the following two,,,bizarre.

Panesar fluked a respectable average for a while thanks to tailend and declaration chase wickets along with some very helpful conditions. Recently he's been sussed out for the one dimensional bowler he is and can't even buy a wicket for Northants - where he's been outbowled by international flop Boje - whose batting and fielding are also light years ahead of Monty. Panesar still carries the huge baggage of his criminally inept fielding and batting, whilst time and again he's proven he can't help you force wins against Test class opposition on wearing pitches or even break partnerships.

So can't take wickets, can't bat, can't field. Useless.

 

[dizzy]

Panesar fluked a respectable average for a while thanks to tailend and declaration chase wickets along with some very helpful conditions. Recently he's been sussed out for the one dimensional bowler he is and can't even buy a wicket for Northants - where he's been outbowled by international flop Boje - whose batting and fielding are also light years ahead of Monty. Panesar still carries the huge baggage of his criminally inept fielding and batting, whilst time and again he's proven he can't help you force wins against Test class opposition on wearing pitches or even break partnerships.

So can't take wickets, can't bat, can't field. Useless.

A very simplistic analysis of Monty but I do agree about his fielding although there has been significant improvements. From my observations he seems to have lost a lot of confidence but I have time for him. You can also argue that Swann took a lot of wicjkets against an inept West Indies but I am keen the latter is in.

I would accept in recent times he has looked one dimensional for a bowler who initially was very attacking with some variety.

What are your thoughts on Rasid and Swann as the spinning options and which one would you select for the test?

 

[Scaly piscine]

Panesar was never very attacking, that's another one of those popular myths surrounding Panesar. An attacking bowler would be capable of buying a wicket, breaking partnerships and helping to force positive results. As soon as anyone shows the slightest bit of attacking intent Panesar bowls it even more flat and fast. The fact the guy doesn't seem to have much of a cricketing brain also works against him as a spinner, he doesn't know how to bowl aggressively.

 

[zaremba]

So can't take wickets, can't bat, can't field. Useless.

Won us the Ashes with the bat, tbf

 

[dizzy]

Won us the Ashes with the bat, tbf

Fantastic!! Lol