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Ponting better than Sachin : Ian Chappell

Burgey

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none... and i dont think they even came close to winning one... india have always had mediocre bowlers who struggled outside their own shores... they have had just two series wins in west indies, new zealand and england in 70+ years of test cricket. one each in SL and Pak. and nothing in aus and SA. them not winning against the best is not surprising at all.

australia on the other hand have had match winning leather flingers from spofforth down to warne. they have won against everyone everywhere many times. in the most successful period of that country's history, from mid/late 90s till last year, the won one series in india and lost three. and their most important batsmen failed in all four series. that is worth talking about.
For sure. Though I think as Jack mentioned he wasn't the main man on his first couple of trips. Certainly by 04 and the last trip he was. I'd hoped when he made that ton in the 1st test he might have pressed but unfortunately he didn't.

Probably fair to say that Australia's attack on our last tour to India performed more like the Indian attacks you've just described rather than the Aussie ones who came before them. Thought we were terible tbh.

Medium to long term, the amount of cricket Australia now plays in India can only do our chances the world of good. Players used to talk about going there like it was another planet conditions-wise. I think,with greater exposure, that's gone forever, and hopefully from our POV we'll have more success there.
 
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Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
none... and i dont think they even came close to winning one... india have always had mediocre bowlers who struggled outside their own shores... they have had just two series wins in west indies, new zealand and england in 70+ years of test cricket. one each in SL and Pak. and nothing in aus and SA. them not winning against the best is not surprising at all.

australia on the other hand have had match winning leather flingers from spofforth down to warne. they have won against everyone everywhere many times. in the most successful period of that country's history, from mid/late 90s till last year, the won one series in india and lost three. and their most important batsmen failed in all four series. that is worth talking about.

EDIT: correction. india has beaten england in england thrice.
The flaw in your argument is that, as Vic pointed out, Ponting was not the most important batsmen in his first 3 trips to India. Also, attributing the loss of the final test match in the '04 series to his "failure" is a bit ridiculous as well. It was his one and only match on the tour, he was coming back from an injury, and due to the rather extreme state of the pitch, the match was over inside 3 days....To essentially tie that loss with the inclusion of Ponting in the team is well, ludicrous.
 

Top_Cat

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The flaw in your argument is that, as Vic pointed out, Ponting was not the most important batsmen in his first 3 trips to India. Also, attributing the loss of the final test match in the '04 series to his "failure" is a bit ridiculous as well. It was his one and only match on the tour, he was coming back from an injury, and due to the rather extreme state of the pitch, the match was over inside 3 days....To essentially tie that loss with the inclusion of Ponting in the team is well, ludicrous.
Yeh, the succession of cross-bat swipes in OZ's chase probably contributed a little more...
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Haha I think I remember Ponting's 2nd dig. He came out flying smashing Zaheer Khan, and then was caught behind I think.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Haha I think I remember Ponting's 2nd dig. He came out flying smashing Zaheer Khan, and then was caught behind I think.
was caught at slip.. The ball went of the outside edge and hit DK's thigh and bounced up nicely for one of the slips to gobble it up, I think.. Or maybe that was Martyn. But Murali Kartik got both of them in an over...


EDIT: Now that I think about it, I think MK made Ponting look even more of a bunny than Harbhajan ever did. Distincly remember Ponting give at least 3 to 4 chances everytime he faced him, in the ODIs in 2003, in the Sydney test and then in 2004 too... Punter always had a funny thing when facing Murali Kartik... I did see the 2001 series and Bhaji always got him out real soon, so it was more like instant death. Against MK though, it was like torture... Watching him struggle so much against a guy who was never good enough to be in India's best XI, or at least considered to be so by the selectors..
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
1 to 7 averages 29.95

Without Ponting, the average is 36.8 for the top 7. Now that is a difference!
How did you get that? With the stats above:

[1468 (Australia's runs) - 132 (Ponting's runs)] / [53 (Australia's innings) - 7 (Ponting's innings) - 4 (not outs)] = 31.8

Also, your stats seem to conflict with mine; if you take off your 1-7 filter then the average goes down to 25.5. This is how I got 27 (26.68). India also achieved something with an average of 44 over those games so your stats aren't the total for every batsman in the matches either.
 
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Migara

International Coach
How did you get that? With the stats above:

[1468 (Australia's runs) - 132 (Ponting's runs)] / [53 (Australia's innings) - 7 (Ponting's innings) - 4 (not outs)] = 31.8

Also, your stats seem to conflict with mine; if you take off your 1-7 filter then the average goes down to 25.5. This is how I got 27 (26.68). India also achieved something with an average of 44 over those games so your stats aren't the total for every batsman in the matches either.
Yeah, my Bad. I have made a mistake.

Australians average 36.2 since 1990 in India (1-7 batsmen)

Ponting averahes 20.85 in India

Rest of the top and middle order hence averaged (6664 - 438) / (196 - 21 -12) = 38.19
 

bagapath

International Captain
Yeah, my Bad. I have made a mistake.

Australians average 36.2 since 1990 in India (1-7 batsmen)

Ponting averahes 20.85 in India

Rest of the top and middle order hence averaged (6664 - 438) / (196 - 21 -12) = 38.19
very useful stats. if one player could bring down the overall avg by 2 runs then he must really be making a mess of things in the middle. thanks to ricky india can beat australia more often at home.
 

inzi_afridi

Cricket Spectator
ponting is better than tendulkar for the simple fact that tendulkar has hardly ever won a game for india most of his hundreds are in the first innings:dry:, he's never won a world cup :laugh:

he's sooooooooooooo craven he probably will be playing until he's about 50 which is why he 's broken all the records no doubt he is a great player but not better than ponting

he also isnt better than viv who was pure entertainer and didnt play cricket to break all the records but for entertainment . world cup winner

he isnt better than Lara who played many more match winning knocks than tendulkar and who was also more of an entertainer.

Inzamam was also more of a pressure player 18 out of all his test match hundreds came in winning causes , look at his knock in the world cup semi against new zealand tendulkar could never play a knock like that he would have choked under the pressure , inzi was also a world cup winner

miandad pressure player

ponting will probably break all of tendus records and do it with some entertainment and he is a world cup winner

tendulkar has become a tuk tuk player
he WAS a great player but he should hang his tuk tuk boots up
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Did find people talking about series in 2001 etc. So went for full 20 years. Not much of a deal I think, you can always do you statsguru filter.
It is, because IIRC, we were talking about how good India were at home in the 90s. In fact, you brought this up.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
excuses... excuses.... it is still mcgrath/warne/gillespie/kasper right? it is not zaheer, agarkar, kumble and nehra FFS !!
I'd back any of Zaheer Khan, Nehra and yes even Agarkar to bowl better on almost any occasion than Kasprowicz and especially Gillespie did in the 2005 Ashes. He completely lost it, in the blink of an eye.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
or a decent spinner....
not necessarily.. warne was part of the 98,01,04 campaigns.
And Warne was certainly not a decent spinner in either of the former two. In fact in the 3-year period between said 1997/98 and 2000/01 series' he did virtually nothing of note at the Test level. Shortly after the later series he'd been so bad for so long that there was serious talk of him retiring imminently.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Look, there is no way for me to prove that they weren't implemented, nor is there any way for you to prove they were. I'm happy to come to the conclusion I've come to, and I daresay you're happy to do likewise. I'll leave it there.
Their clearly is a way to prove it once you watched HIM BAT vs SA 05/06 & IND 07/08. Hayden's biggest technical faults of being - vulnerable to full swining deliveries - and full outside off-stump bowling, where not exposed enough between IND 01 to NZ 05 because of amount of flat decks are average bowling attacks he faced.

If no improvements where made to his technique after the first 4 Ashes test he couldn't have saved his career with that Oval hundred nor scored runs vs SA 05/06 & IND 07/08. The first signs of helpul conditions for the bowlers (which they where many in these 3 series) he would have failed.

As for Hayden's failures in 2008/09 they had very little to do with exploitation of career-long faults and more to do with new faults that crept in that season - which may or may not have been to do with the media pressure.
No new faults that i saw. Hayden vs NZ & SA 08/09 just uncharacteristically went into his shell after the crazy media pressure was pushign him to be axed, after AUS lost in India. Hayden never looked technically exposed or as you claim - nor had new faults had crept in.

I actually agree that SA's attack of 2005/06 was probably better than their one of 2008/09.But the 2005/06 one was not stacked with (in fact did not contain at all) bowlers who could bowl big inswingers to the LHB,
Yes that true. But the argument againts Hayden in the past was principally trageted towards that simple technical fault that he had - but he was major FTB & that any time conditions helped the seamers he was potentially a walking wicket.

[/B] nor were any of the decks really very seam-friendly when Hayden batted on them (some of them had the odd session where they were, most of which occurred when SA were batting).[/B]
Thats is half right - half wrong.

During the home series in AUS first this argument has some merit.

In the 1st test in 2005 for the first 2 days in both AUS & SA respective 1st innings, the pitch was very much bowler friendly. Hayden didn't score big here. But at the same time, he wasn't in trouble at the crease.

In the second test, SA where all over AUS on the first day in very helpul. Hayden & Ponting's partnership was even more brilliant because of how they had to battle. The MCG test overall was even tussle between bat & ball - and Hayden was the best batsman.

Only in Sydney is where your argument really is on point because when the ptich was flat during that 4th innings chase Hayden scored big & SA's attack had not Ntini & Nel was injured.

Moving over to the tests in SA, the pitches where very good cricket pitches. Movement & consistent bounce for the bowler & good batsmen got runs. This is proven by the fact that no score of 400 was scored in those 3 tests.

But overall he was tested technically in this series. It may not have been the usual tactic to get him out LBW that ENG did in 05. But it was a very good attack that made him work hard for his runs, he couldn't bully them - which showed a different side to Hayden that was not seen much between IND 01 to NZ 05.
 

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