Ireland For Test Status?

[Athlai]

Lol. Love your icon, btw.

Cheers

 

[GIMH]

Even 10 years ago no-one would've turned a hair at it.

Comparing Irishmen playing for England to South Africans playing county cricket is plain ludicrous. England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are not, under any circumstances, overseas from each other (though yes, you have to cross sea to get to the Irish mainland from the British mainland).

It is over a sea, but it is not overseas. Overseas implies, essentially, foreign - nowhere in the British (and Irish) Isles is remotely foreign to one another. There is no way I will ever accept someone calling an Irishman "a foreigner", the way, for instance, a Frenchman, Kiwi or Icelander would be.

Richard, it has been independent for about eighty years, with all due respect it's not really your decision whether they are 'foreign' or not, they just are

 

[Richard]

Ireland is a different country, which means that "foreign" is a correct definition, I think. If it was not 'overseas' it wouldn't have its own goverment, own head of state, use a different currency, or require you to show your passport to enter... to name but a few things. "Over a sea but not overseas" sounds more appropriate to be applied to the Isle of Wight.

How is Ireland any different to France in that respect? Of course, in cricketing terms, there is the complication of Northern Ireland playing with Ireland... but I would have thought that's up to the cricket administration in Northern Ireland. Given the huge sensitivities around these issues, I would have thought this was an area where it is most sensible to tread carefully.

Ireland isn't a different country - precisely because Ireland isn't a country. Ireland is one part one separate country (ROI) and one part a part of the UK (NI).

So a part of the UK is over a sea, then without going over a sea you go into a different country. There is no "foreign"ness about an Irishman, AFAIC, whether he's from NI or ROI. There is everything "foreign" about a Frenchman or a Kiwi. He can be proud of being Irish, but similarly, someone can be proud to be from Yorkshire (or even Kent) and that doesn't make them foreign.

France is completely and obviously massively different from UK\ROI. There are so many ways in which this is so - language being one such. Now then, all right, I've never been to Dublin, but I've also never been to Liverpool, and I do still know something about both of them.

 

[Richard]

Yeah definitely, I have an Irish mother and I reckon she'd go ballistic seeing some of the things Rich has been saying. You know he doesn't mean any harm but it just seems a bit ignorant to all the deeper issues of the situation.

Deeper issues like what? The fact that for God-knows-how-long the Irish were oppressed and made second-class by the British? All in the past that, no sense in allowing frankly despicable matters like that to impact on the way the UK and ROI move forwards.

Anything else especially you had in mind?

 

[Richard]

Haha no idea what Richard is going on about. In New Zealand you'd be hard pressed to find us calling a Pom a foreigner, and you almost certainly would never see an Aussie being refered too that way.

Really? I'm not especially surprised if an Aussie was treated as "not foreign" in New Zealand but frankly it astonishes me that someone British wouldn't be. There is no way I'd regard an Antipodean (be they Aussie or Kiwi) as aught but foreign.

Obviously, around some parts "foreigner" has, for some completely inexplicable reason, a negative connotation - the word is often used to in some way degradate. That, obviously, is completely wrong and I deplore such use.

 

[Athlai]

Deeper issues like what? The fact that for God-knows-how-long the Irish were oppressed and made second-class by the British? All in the past that, no sense in allowing frankly despicable matters like that to impact on the way the UK and ROI move forwards.

Anything else especially you had in mind?

The past being barely a generation. Will take a bit longer before it goes away IMO.

 

[Athlai]

Really? I'm not especially surprised if an Aussie was treated as "not foreign" in New Zealand but frankly it astonishes me that someone British wouldn't be. There is no way I'd regard an Antipodean (be they Aussie or Kiwi) as aught but foreign.

Obviously, around some parts "foreigner" has, for some completely inexplicable reason, a negative connotation - the word is often used to in some way degradate. That, obviously, is completely wrong and I deplore such use.

Well it could be due to the fact that pretty much every other Kiwi is first, second or third generation British.

 

[four_or_six]

Ireland isn't a different country - precisely because Ireland isn't a country. Ireland is one part one separate country (ROI) and one part a part of the UK (NI).

So a part of the UK is over a sea, then without going over a sea you go into a different country. There is no "foreign"ness about an Irishman, AFAIC, whether he's from NI or ROI. There is everything "foreign" about a Frenchman or a Kiwi. He can be proud of being Irish, but similarly, someone can be proud to be from Yorkshire (or even Kent) and that doesn't make them foreign.

France is completely and obviously massively different from UK\ROI. There are so many ways in which this is so - language being one such. Now then, all right, I've never been to Dublin, but I've also never been to Liverpool, and I do still know something about both of them.

Personally, I disagree with you. But there we go.

 

[GIMH]

Ireland isn't a different country - precisely because Ireland isn't a country. Ireland is one part one separate country (ROI) and one part a part of the UK (NI).

So a part of the UK is over a sea, then without going over a sea you go into a different country. There is no "foreign"ness about an Irishman, AFAIC, whether he's from NI or ROI. There is everything "foreign" about a Frenchman or a Kiwi. He can be proud of being Irish, but similarly, someone can be proud to be from Yorkshire (or even Kent) and that doesn't make them foreign.

France is completely and obviously massively different from UK\ROI. There are so many ways in which this is so - language being one such. Now then, all right, I've never been to Dublin, but I've also never been to Liverpool, and I do still know something about both of them.

I think this is why WIll said you shouldn't really talk about this issue. Some Irish people would be very offended by your 'not a country' statement, I know you don't mean any malice or anything but it's quite a complex issue and you really shouldn't be so blase about it.

 

[Richard]

Personally, I disagree with you. But there we go.

You don't disagree with me - you disagree with internationally recognised geographical realities.

Republic Of Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is part of another country, the UK. Ireland therefore is not one entity.

That's about as disputable as the fact that the English term for the colour of the sky is "blue".

 

[GIMH]

You don't disagree with me - you disagree with internationally recognised geographical realities.

Republic Of Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is part of another country, the UK. Ireland therefore is not one entity.

That's about as disputable as the fact that the English term for the colour of the sky is "blue".

Sorry Richard, but boy am I glad that cricket isn't played in Palestine

 

[Richard]

I think this is why WIll said you shouldn't really talk about this issue. Some Irish people would be very offended by your 'not a country' statement, I know you don't mean any malice or anything but it's quite a complex issue and you really shouldn't be so blase about it.

I am aware of some of the sentiments - on both sides of the border - on the matter. But I fail to see how stating something that is, as I say in the post above, internationally recognised geographical fact is something that anyone has much right to get het-up about.

I'd say you had to be pretty irrational to see something other than a statement of fact behind such a comment. Maybe some people would like NI to become part of ROI rather than the UK, and that isn't, BTW, something I am either commenting on or presenting opposition to. But as things stand, Ireland is not a country, it is an island which contains two countries, as Britain is an island that contains part of one country, and New Zealand is two islands (in fact may be more) that makes-up one country.

 

[Richard]

Sorry Richard, but boy am I glad that cricket isn't played in Palestine

I'm also glad that the situation in NI and ROI isn't (now or arguably ever) as volatile as that in Israel\Palestine.

 

[Richard]

The past being barely a generation. Will take a bit longer before it goes away IMO.

The sooner it goes away the better, simple as. It's a crying shame for it to impact on anything, including cricket. As it's always a shame when something "bad" impacts on anything after it has been dealt (to whatever extent) with.

 

[GIMH]

I am aware of some of the sentiments - on both sides of the border - on the matter. But I fail to see how stating something that is, as I say in the post above, internationally recognised geographical fact is something that anyone has much right to get het-up about.

I'd say you had to be pretty irrational to see something other than a statement of fact behind such a comment. Maybe some people would like NI to become part of ROI rather than the UK, and that isn't, BTW, something I am either commenting on or presenting opposition to. But as things stand, Ireland is not a country, it is an island which contains two countries, as Britain is an island that contains part of one country, and New Zealand is two islands (in fact may be more) that makes-up one country.

It is something many people feel hugely strongly about though, I'm sure you are aware that it is a fundamental reason why there has been so much trouble in Ireland the last...god knows how many years, and to say, matter of factly, "it's not a country", well I dare you to go into a bar in Dublin or wherever and say that.

 

[Richard]

It is something many people feel hugely strongly about though, I'm sure you are aware that it is a fundamental reason why there has been so much trouble in Ireland the last...god knows how many years, and to say, matter of factly, "it's not a country", well I dare you to go into a bar in Dublin or wherever and say that.

Oh, I wouldn't, not under any circumstances. Similarly, I wouldn't go into Zimbabwe and start posting propaganda everywhere about what a ****wit Robert Mugabe is - doesn't make it any less of a widely-accepted truth though.

By-and-large (no, not exclusively), those who object obtusely to such things are people who are given to overreaction and, quite possibly, ****wits. As I say - reasoned debate on whether NI and ROI should be one country is one thing; insistence that they are and should unequivocally be is quite another.

 

[James_W]

Richard, I do see where you're coming from, but you're being incredibly ignorant. There are many many many reasons why Ireland (and I refer to Ireland) would not want to be merged with Britain in any sense, even in a sport which isn't overly popular. In Rubgy you have the British and Irish Lions of course where 'British' and 'Irish' are both clearly emphasised, but no real Irishman would be happy to play for a team called 'England.' Too much history. If you imagine Pakistan didn't have test status, it would be akin to a born and bred Pakistani playing for India perhaps, which I don't think too likely.

 

[Richard]

Richard, I do see where you're coming from, but you're being incredibly ignorant. There are many many many reasons why Ireland (and I refer to Ireland) would not want to be merged with Britain in any sense, even in a sport which isn't overly popular. In Rubgy you have the British and Irish Lions of course where 'British' and 'Irish' are both clearly emphasised to , but no real Irishman would be happy to play for a team called 'England.' Too much history. If you imagine Pakistan didn't have test status, it would be akin to a born and bred Pakistani playing for India perhaps, which I don't think too likely.

I fully recognise that, and would absolutely support a name-change which satisfied Irish minds if England, Wales, Scotland, NI and ROI were indeed to play cricket under one umbrella. The trouble is that I've been assured that, even if such an outcome were to be offered (and let's face it, it's about as likely as the smiley turning into the one), more than not in both NI and ROI wouldn't be sufficiently keen on the idea.

I don't particularly like the England cricket team being called England ITFP. I wish it had been given a different name - in fact I'd be happier if it still represented a club, MCC, than "England". It is and has been for many, many years representative of England and Wales (long before the England and Wales Cricket Board) and "England" is not and never was an accurate name for the Test (and later ODI) team.

Sadly it's exceptionally unlikely to change any time soon.

 

[James_W]

I don't think it's a secret that England will always be England.

 

[marc71178]

Gahhhh such mind-numbing ignorance. I propose that you stop posting.

Fixed