Ireland For Test Status?

[Richard]

Most people don't tend to take kindly to other people putting words in their mouth that they never have any intention of saying and implying values that they have never remotely considered holding.

 

[Chemosit]

Deeper issues like what? The fact that for God-knows-how-long the Irish were oppressed and made second-class by the British? All in the past that, no sense in allowing frankly despicable matters like that to impact on the way the UK and ROI move forwards.

Anything else especially you had in mind?

Love to see you go to a pub in Ireland and expound on your theory. I would however hate to see the hospital bill afterwards.

 

[Richard]

As I said, pubs in the Republic Of Ireland (and Northern Ireland too FTM) are not of the slightest relevance.

Pubs are not generally the best places to be having rational discussion, for one of many things.

 

[Goughy]

It is something many people feel hugely strongly about though, I'm sure you are aware that it is a fundamental reason why there has been so much trouble in Ireland the last...god knows how many years, and to say, matter of factly, "it's not a country", well I dare you to go into a bar in Dublin or wherever and say that.

Id happily walk into a bar and say that. Ireland is not a country. ROI is a seperate sovereign state to GB and NI.

For all peoples wants, desires, bleating and whining (from all sides) that fact is not debatable.

What does that mean for cricket? I dont really know. Certainly an Irish Test team would not represent a nation but a geographical area. However the WI exist so a precedent has been set.

 

[Top_Cat]

Id happily walk into a bar and say that. Ireland is not a country. ROI is a seperate sovereign state to GB and NI.

For all peoples wants, desires, bleating and whining (from all sides) that fact is not debatable.

Hah, like that matters. The question isn't whether you'd walk into a bar and say that, the question is whether you'd walk out of it.

"Look, put that gun away. You know you're factually wrong!"

*BLAM!*

 

[Richard]

I'd say we all know - and however much some people paint Ireland as a mad USA-like trigger-happy free-for-all, in reality I imagine most people in Ireland actually know - that there won't be any trigger pulling over anything. A few punches might be thrown by some undesireables, but as we all know Kev (unlike not a few) can handle himself in that respect.

Either way, as I say, the "go into a pub and say that" example is pretty well always a terrible response to anything concerning well-reasoned debate - which is precisely why it's so often used as an attempted response, because people try to make the "you'd get beaten up in some quarters for saying that so therefore it's wrong" claim, which explains precisely why it's ludicrous.

The question is not whether some people from the Republic Of Ireland want Northern Ireland to be part of their country - there's no doubt that's true; the question is whether it is geographically and politically recognised as such - there's no doubt it isn't. The fact of the matter is Ireland is not one politically recognised country. Regardless of any rights and wrongs concerning the whole messy saga, that's how things currently stand.

 

[Goughy]

Hah, like that matters. The question isn't whether you'd walk into a bar and say that, the question is whether you'd walk out of it.

"Look, put that gun away. You know you're factually wrong!"

*BLAM!*

Since when were all bars full of gun toting ignorant, violent republicans?

There is a north and a south and it was part of a two-state solution and both are part of seperate independant sovereign states. Its also how the majority want it. Its hardly anything to dispute.

Again, Im not sure what this means in cricket.

 

[four_or_six]

You don't disagree with me - you disagree with internationally recognised geographical realities.

Republic Of Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is part of another country, the UK. Ireland therefore is not one entity.

That's about as disputable as the fact that the English term for the colour of the sky is "blue".

I always thought that Ireland was an official name for both the country, as an alternative to 'Republic of Ireland' and 'Eire' as well as also the name of the island. I don't know the correct use, but the Republic of Ireland government does call their website 'Government of Ireland'. But that may be political, like I say I don't know the details. Perhaps someone can enlighten me? I would genuinely be interested in the semantics.

And in terms of my disagreement, I was more referring to your last two paragraphs anyway.

 

[Richard]

I always thought that Ireland was an official name for both the country, as an alternative to 'Republic of Ireland' and 'Eire' as well as also the name of the island. I don't know the correct use, but the Republic of Ireland government does call their website 'Government of Ireland'. But that may be political, like I say I don't know the details. Perhaps someone can enlighten me? I would genuinely be interested in the semantics.

From what I've gathered, those in the ROI, who feel strongly Irish and independent of the UK, tend to use "Ireland" to mean ROI. Someone Northern Irish who feels a strong connection to Britain may use it differently. Equally, some Northern Irish people feel a stronger connection to ROI than Britain. I imagine it depends on a number of factors.

And in terms of my disagreement, I was more referring to your last two paragraphs anyway.

Ah, I see. I made the mistake of thinking you'd boldened my sentence about "Ireland isn't a separate country", when in fact that was like that in the original post.

I wish people would use the size function, or delete the rest of the quote, when a reply relates purely to one section or line of a quote.

So you're saying an Irishman is a foreigner to your mind?

 

[GIMH]

A southern Irishman is a foreigner in the UK, fact

 

[Richard]

Obviously, someone from ROI isn't a UK citizen, but I'm talking about who someone personally considers "foreign". Although there is a dictionary definition (which I presume merely amounts basically to "someone inhabiting a country which they are not a citizen of") I'd say there's a fair amount of scope for personalisation.

 

[Goughy]

A southern Irishman is a foreigner in the UK, fact

Yeah, a foreigner with historical ties (eg the right to live and vote in UK) but a foreigner never the less.

The point of this post was that I was suprized to read (if the article can be believed) that people from Commonwealth countries living in UK can vote in British general elections (I had long known about the reciprical agreement between GB and ROI).

"British electoral law provides for the citizens of nearly fifty Commonwealth countries, British Dependent Territories, and the Republic of Ireland to vote in both local and general elections in the UK. Entitlement to vote in general elections is reciprocated for UK citizens in the Republic of Ireland and Antigua & Barbuda; Dominica; Grenada; Guyana; Jamaica; Mauritius; St. Lucia and St. Vincent & The Grenadines."

I thought that was interesting.

 

[GIMH]

I never knew that tbh, very strange

 

[BoyBrumby]

A southern Irishman is a foreigner in the UK, fact

Yeah, although they've always been kinda "foreigners plus"; even before the EU established right of labour movement across its borders southern Irishmen (and women) had the right to live, work and vote in the UK.

As a related aside, I wonder what rugby 7's admission to the Olympics will mean for Ireland? Presumably England, Scotland & Wales will compete as GB, but I don't know about any Ulstermen. Guess they'd have the choice to play for GB or Ireland.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Ireland isn't a Country and they're not going to get Test status.
Thank you and goodnight.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Ireland isn't a Country and they're not going to get Test status.
Thank you and goodnight.

Not any time soon, no.

Us nicking their best players not going to help in the long run either.

 

[Goughy]

Guess they'd have the choice to play for GB or Ireland.

Probably not as the Olympic team will be designed on how Olympic teams are structured rather than and the way rugby is. The ROI olympic team is not representing 'Ireland' as a whole. The Ulstermen already fall under the GB and NI flag.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Probably not as the Olympic team will be designed on how Olympic teams are structured rather than and the way rugby is. The ROI olympic team is not representing 'Ireland' as a whole. The Ulstermen already fall under the GB and NI flag.

I thought Northern Irish people had a right to either (or indeed both) citizenships tho? If an Ulsterman exercised his right he'd presumably have a choice?

 

[Goughy]

I thought Northern Irish people had a right to either (or indeed both) citizenships tho? If an Ulsterman exercised his right he'd presumably have a choice?

hmm, there is a good point there. They do get the right to both. I guess if they wanted to represent Eire then they could but if they wanted to represent NI itself then they would have to play for GB and NI.

Obviously choosing to play for ROI would mean choosing not to represent NI as NI representation is under the 'UK and NI' umbrella.

EDIT- Having talked about ROI and voting, according to wiki "In the Republic of Ireland, prisoners are not specifically denied the right to vote, but are also not provided access to a ballot station, so are effectively disenfranchised." Sneaky sneaky

 

[James_W]

I thought Northern Irish people had a right to either (or indeed both) citizenships tho? If an Ulsterman exercised his right he'd presumably have a choice?

Spot on. My mate has lived in Belfast all his life and won Paralympic gold at Beijing last year representing Ireland, not GB.