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****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
that was a good innings no doubt,but I am talking about an innings of pure brilliance,one that could have made the Wisden 100 best Innings in tests.
He can't.
Oh and inb4 hundred vs Eng in Chennai(weak bowling and flat track)
come on mate.. that 1994 hundred at Perth is one of the all time great knocks.. The rest of the Indian batsmen basically had no clue and were being taught how to bat by an 18 year old kid... IT is easily Sachin's best knock AFAIC.. :)
 

Top_Cat

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come on mate.. That 1994 hundred at perth is one of the all time great knocks.. The rest of the indian batsmen basically had no clue and were being taught how to bat by an 18 year old kid... It is easily sachin's best knock afaic.. :)
1992. :)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Dude, if Lara was worked out in that period, then concede that McGrath was worked out by Lara in that 2003 series.. You are just talking stupid stuff ATM...
No no sir. McGrath missed the first two test of the 2003 series, due to reoccurance of a side strain injury after the WC which he had sumemr during the 2002/03 AUS summer.

He was wayyyyy below his best with the ball in those two tests. That was the beggining of the worst period of McGrath's test career due to a fair amount of injuries & when he retured in 2004, even the AUS selectors are past players where questioning his position in the side.

So just how due to Tendys tennis-elbow woes in 2004, i discard in arguments about runs he made vs AUS when McWarne. Same thing for Lara.


And about that 99 series... You only watched it in little spells.. I watched the bloody entire thing and I KNOW that Lara was head and shoulders above the rest in that series. McGrath almost never looked like getting him out, inspite of what I consider to be his best spell on a last day track in Barbados where he got his fifer.. He induced one edge and that went low and wud have bounced befor first slip but Healy dived... It would have been a super catch had he taken it.


And FTR, Lara cover drove the next ball after he was hit on the helmet for a boundary. And in Barbados, he pulled him away for a four after he was hit.. Trust me, Lara EASILY won that series....
I watched the entire series as well. All i'm saying is McGrath tested him in alot of spells, it wasn't a situation where Mcgrath never looked like getting Lara out. Thats why i call it even. But fair enough if you personally want to give the edge to Lara - but its not that big.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
So what? He was still as successful in getting him out.
Thats the difference in the arguement i made way back when i started this thread:

me said:
8. Tendulkar's technique is superior to Lara's which is shown by the fact that Lara had a big technical flaw throughout the 90s when he was vulnerable outside off-stump and was caught in the slips & the gully & point region a lot. A weakness exposed superbly by the great Glenn McGrath. Tendulkar at his best during the 90s has only been occasionally vulnerable to the incutter, a weakness exposed at times by Donald, McGrath & Wasim Akram.

But for me with Lara never needed great technique, Lara is all about great hand-eye co-ordination, utter brilliance, powerful, stamina, a huge appetite for runs & an the temperament for the big occasion.

Are you trying to suggest that Tendulkar was technically faultless?

I recall Tendulkar having a flaw a few years back when he used to get bowled repeatedly attempting to drive an outswing delivery. Abdul Razzaq exploited it quite well.
Tendy at his peak from 1990-2002 (QPR Oval test), before Pedro Collins gave him alot of toruble in WI 02 & his tennis elbow woes never had any major technical flaw.

Him getting caught at slips is a standard dismissal for most batsmen TBF. McGrath at his metronomical best just got him out like that a few times. There never was a situation anytime AUS played IND, where no specific field settings for a plan was set againts Tendy.



Tendulkar never scored a hundred in Pakistan against WW either.

And what's the point of scoring a hundred when you fail for the rest of the series, as he did against Pakistan in India in 1999. The fact is, in the final analysis, he didn't do better than Lara against those attacks.
My bad on this point. I been going at this argument for so long , this is the argument i put forward on page 1 for Lara v Tendy record vs PAK/SA when Wasim/Waqar - Donald/Pollock.


Tendulkar averages 24 more in PAK, on his 1st tour to Pakistan at just 16 facing Imran/Wasim/Waqar/Qadir, Tendulkar averaged 36.Lara in 2 tours to Pakistan in 90/91 & 97 averaged 24.50 & 21.50. This is signigicant that a young tendulkar could average 36 vs these great bowlers & in 97 Lara barely averaged 21 vs Wasim/Waqar


me said:
5. Tendulkar has averaged 40+ away from home againts good/great attacks more times than Lara. Lara up until 2001 only did so once vs SRI in 2001 while recently in Australia he averaged 57. Lara also never averaged 40+ in South Africa when Donald-Pollock were playing nor when Wasim-Waqar etc were playing.

But it can be argued here that Tendulkar's record in SA vs a good/great attack, he had more of a chance to prove himself over their vs Donald-Pollock at the peak of their powers than Lara did, but you can only take of what oppurtunities you get but the fact that Tendulkar played againts a good/great SA attack 3 times in the 90s compared to Lara's one is significant

6. Lara failed to score a century vs Donald-Pollock or Wasim-Waqar etc. Tendulkar did so againts both.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Aussie Date of Birth - March 21, 1989.

So when Tendulkar scored his glorious 100 at Perth, you were exactly two years old.

Here's a brief summary of his 1992 inning in the most nondescript manner you will find it described as Wisden is so famous for, yet captures the strength of the innings -

India's bedrock was a captivating 114 from Tendulkar from 161 balls with 16 fours, the bulk of them square cuts. He came in at 69 for two and was ninth out at 240, after 228 minutes, and a record ninth-wicket stand for India against Australia, of 81, with More. On the third morning, as he ran out of partners, he scored his second 50 from 55 balls.

and this was Perth back in the day we are talking about.
Ha...did i ever say anything to discredit this innings?. I dont believe i have..
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
No no sir. McGrath missed the first two test of the 2003 series, due to reoccurance of a side strain injury after the WC which he had sumemr during the 2002/03 AUS summer.

He was wayyyyy below his best with the ball in those two tests. That was the beggining of the worst period of McGrath's test career due to a fair amount of injuries & when he retured in 2004, even the AUS selectors are past players where questioning his position in the side.



And about that 99 series... You only watched it in little spells.. I watched the bloody entire thing and I KNOW that Lara was head and shoulders above the rest in that series. McGrath almost never looked like getting him out, inspite of what I consider to be his best spell on a last day track in Barbados where he got his fifer.. He induced one edge and that went low and wud have bounced befor first slip but Healy dived... It would have been a super catch had he taken it.






I watched the entire series as well. All i'm saying is McGrath tested him in alot of spells, it wasn't a situation where Mcgrath never looked like getting Lara out. Thats why i call it even. But fair enough if you personally want to give the edge to Lara - but its not that big.
IIRC, it took a bloody freaky run out to get him out in the first dig even in Trinidad.. He looked well set then. And in the second innings, got one of the best deliveries I have ever seen bowled to a left hander from Jason Gillespie... As I said, throughout the series, while McGrath did bowl well (he was after all, at his peak as well) but never really looked like troubling Lara...


I was talking about the 2005 series anyways.. But yes, I know he missed a couple of tests but he was still bowling well.. Well enough because I did see the whole series again. I basically never missed a Windies series since 93 or so.. They were always my #2 team till this stupid pay dispute came about..
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
ORION said:
that was a good innings no doubt,but I am talking about an innings of pure brilliance,one that could have made the Wisden 100 best Innings in tests.
He can't.
Wisden 100 looked at a lot of things. It paid far too much weightage on whether a team won a game and is a flawed list. More often than not, winning a game is not in the control of the player batting. Was it one of the best 100 innings of all time? I don't know. It was one damn good inning though and who cares whether it made the Wisden 100 or not. It is etched in the record books and in the memories of those who have seen it as one of the knocks of sheer brilliance and that is all I care about.

Also, if you believe so much in Wisden lists, From wikipedia -

Following the launch of the top Test and ODI performances lists, Wisden received many requests asking whether it was possible to create a ranking list of all-time great players by using the same formula and examining the average rating each player received per innings. Including a weighting for players with longer careers, Wisden arrived at the lists below.[8] In Tests, Donald Bradman was the clear leader in the batting category and Muttiah Muralitharan as ranked as the top bowler. In the ODI section, Viv Richards and Wasim Akram are the top-ranked players.

[edit] Top 5 Test batsmen
Rank Batsman Rating
1 Flag of Australia Donald Bradman 1349.0
2 Flag of India Sachin Tendulkar 921. 5
3 Flag of the West Indies Cricket Board Viv Richards 913.9
4 Flag of the West Indies Cricket Board Garfield Sobers 912.0
5 Flag of Australia Allan Border 911.2


Lara is nowhere to be found while Tendulkar is at no. 2. There. Wisden has said it, so it must be true!
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Wisden 100 looked at a lot of things. It paid far too much weightage on whether a team won a game and is a flawed list. More often than not, winning a game is not in the control of the player batting. Was it one of the best 100 innings of all time? I don't know. It was one damn good inning though and who cares whether it made the Wisden 100 or not. It is etched in the record books and in the memories of those who have seen it as one of the knocks of sheer brilliance and that is all I care about.
Urr, when did i quote that. What page?
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Thats the difference in the arguement i made way back when i started this thread:






Tendy at his peak from 1990-2002 (QPR Oval test), before Pedro Collins gave him alot of toruble in WI 02 & his tennis elbow woes never had any major technical flaw.

Him getting caught at slips is a standard dismissal for most batsmen TBF. McGrath at his metronomical best just got him out like that a few times. There never was a situation anytime AUS played IND, where no specific field settings for a plan was set againts Tendy.





My bad on this point. I been going at this argument for so long , this is the argument i put forward on page 1 for Lara v Tendy record vs PAK/SA when Wasim/Waqar - Donald/Pollock.


Tendulkar averages 24 more in PAK, on his 1st tour to Pakistan at just 16 facing Imran/Wasim/Waqar/Qadir, Tendulkar averaged 36.Lara in 2 tours to Pakistan in 90/91 & 97 averaged 24.50 & 21.50. This is signigicant that a young tendulkar could average 36 vs these great bowlers & in 97 Lara barely averaged 21 vs Wasim/Waqar
But you keep talking about extenuating factors, you might want to factor in that during the 1997 tour there was a lot of discontent in the Lara camp that he was not made captain.. Now, we can discuss the rights and wrongs of it from the moral or human perspective, but surely just batting wise, it MUST have affected the way he batted????


And to counter this argument, there is the fact that Lara had hell of a lot more success against McWarne than Sachin did... Lara scored BIG hundreds with very little batting support which Sachin didn't


Ultimately, I don't think either of them were incapable of handliing the great bowlers and what are being pointed out here are, for me, statistical anomalies because had Sachin got the opportunities that Lara got against McWarne I am sure he would have been more successful than he already was against them.


And had Lara got more opportunites against Donald/Pollock or even the Ws esp. when in another year or two when there was not so much going on outside, I am sure he would have been just as successful. As I said, Sachin can be considered to be that slight bit more consistent than Lara but then again Lara is that slight bit more likely to go on and make a more significant score than Sachin. Ultimately it is personal preference and for me, I rate the ability to make really big hundreds as a tad more important than being that bit more consistent and hence I prefer Lara by the slightest possible margin to Sachin.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I was talking about the 2005 series anyways.. But yes, I know he missed a couple of tests but he was still bowling well.. Well enough because I did see the whole series again. I basically never missed a Windies series since 93 or so.. They were always my #2 team till this stupid pay dispute came about..
Well 05/06 as i said was 96/97 & 2000/01 all over again. Where he McGrath & co where on top of him until he scored brilliant hundreds in dead rubber tests. He was never really dominant in 05 (although he had some bad decision in the first two test). Its just how Lara played i guess, would score big hundred from nowhere.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Well 05/06 as i said was 96/97 & 2000/01 all over again. Where he McGrath & co where on top of him until he scored brilliant hundreds in dead rubber tests. He was never really dominant in 05 (although he had some bad decision in the first two test). Its just how Lara played i guess, would score big hundred from nowhere.
trust me, you can't score big hundreds out of nowhere against a bowling attack of the calibre of Australia at that time... He was that good for that long for a reason... And that was because there was nothing in his technique to be "found out".. It is the same with Sachin and Ponting. They are all too good to be "found out"... This is where they differ from a Hayden or even a Dravid to an extent, IMHO.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
But you keep talking about extenuating factors, you might want to factor in that during the 1997 tour there was a lot of discontent in the Lara camp that he was not made captain.. Now, we can discuss the rights and wrongs of it from the moral or human perspective, but surely just batting wise, it MUST have affected the way he batted????.
It most likely did TBF, since when Tendy was captain vs SA in 96/97 & 99/2000 to a level it affected his batting.

And to counter this argument, there is the fact that Lara had hell of a lot more success against McWarne than Sachin did... Lara scored BIG hundreds with very little batting support which Sachin didn't.
Mainly because at their peaks they only met in 4 tests in the 90s. Although i would agree i dont think Tendy could have made those destructive BIG hundreds againts AUS that Lara did. He probably would have scored a typically composed hundreds like MCG 99, if he played them more at their respective peaks.


Ultimately, I don't think either of them were incapable of handliing the great bowlers and what are being pointed out here are, for me, statistical anomalies because had Sachin got the opportunities that Lara got against McWarne I am sure he would have been more successful than he already was against them.


And had Lara got more opportunites against Donald/Pollock or even the Ws esp. when in another year or two when there was not so much going on outside, I am sure he would have been just as successful
. As I said, Sachin can be considered to be that slight bit more consistent than Lara but then again Lara is that slight bit more likely to go on and make a more significant score than Sachin. Ultimately it is personal preference and for me, I rate the ability to make really big hundreds as a tad more important than being that bit more consistent and hence I prefer Lara by the slightest possible margin to Sachin.

Well i personally before i started this thread way back, i tried to keep out every statistical anomalities as possible & i'm 99% sure i did. For example their records in ENG & vs ENG overall. Tendy has hardly faced a top english attack home or away, while Lara did, so i never considered it in the argument.

I didn't consider any battles/runs Tendy or Lara had vs good/great attacks during the periods they where injured.

So to Lara's record vs SA againts Donald/Pollock i dont think that stats picking because in 2001 in WI he had a chance to correct it. Even though it goes againts my arguemt that:

5 said:
. Tendulkar has averaged 40+ away from home againts good/great attacks more times than Lara. Lara up until 2001 only did so once vs SRI in 2001 while recently in Australia he averaged 57. Lara also never averaged 40+ in South Africa when Donald-Pollock were playing nor when Wasim-Waqar etc were playing.
So i cant agree for sure that Lara IF he had more oppurtunities vs SA/PAK away from home, againts those bowlers - thay he would have scored hundreds. Since Tendy did on his first tries, so Tendy should gain an advantage for that.

But overall by personal prefence i am in the Lara camp, id prefer to watch him bat than Tendy all day. But not to be biased, i think their is enough evidence to say due to Tendys consistency againts the the best bowlers in 90s & superior techinque. He should be given that slight edge over the Prince of POS.
 

0RI0N

State 12th Man
oh snap now we quoting wikipedia.ok enough bout that.
In any event, that WACA innings was great but Lara has a 132 at WACA that equals that innings yet that 132 isn't even considered his greatest innings(39th on the Wisden list,below Bradman's 103* in Melbourne '32-33).
Lara has many of those type of innings of the type Tendulkar played.A pity he forsaked that free spiritedness for the conservative cautious innings culminating in the red ink.

SRT batting record:As captain
25 tests
43 inn
3 n/o
2054 runs
51.35 ave
hs 217
7 100's & 7 50's
solid numbers no doubt.
Tendulkar is a massive player,please don't get me wrong.
Lara is greatest amongst his peers.
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
oh snap now we quoting wikipedia.ok enough bout that.
In any event, that WACA innings was great but Lara has a 132 at WACA that equals that innings yet that 132 isn't even considered his greatest innings(39th on the Wisden list,below Bradman's 103* in Melbourne '32-33).
Lara has many of those type of innings of the type Tendulkar played.A pity he forsaked that free spiritedness for the conservative cautious innings culminating in the red ink.

Tendulkar is a massive player,please don't get me wrong.
Lara is greatest amongst his peers.
I quoted wikipedia to QUOTE A WISDEN RANKING SYSTEM. You rely on Wisden stats so much, you must believe them to be true. Why only believe when it is convenient?????????????????

There is no way you can conclusively say Lara is the greatest amongst his peers. The gap between Tendulkar and Lara is very small and you have to respect another person if he believes Tendulkar>Lara.

You are talking out of your ass.

 
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0RI0N

State 12th Man
that's interesting...

I specifically remember a guy who WATCHED Lara destroy Ambrose and a couple of other bowlers to score 189 in a FC game in the cricinfo article... wonder which is right?


Statsguru is not available for FC games too. :(
honestbharani are you referring to the Cricinfo article
Super Six - Brian Lara's greatest hits
'In June 2003 Wisden Asia Cricket looked back at six of Brian Lara's best innings.
Journalists who watched those great knocks relived the moments.'

Could this be the one:
Fazeer Mohammed describes his 180 vs Jamaica, Trinidad 93-94.
Fazeer writes:
'Replying to Jamaica's first-innings total of 206,Lara came to the crease with the score at 38 for 2 on the first evening.
When he was last out after lunch on the 2nd day, he had scored a staggering 180 in 269 minutes off 267 balls with 24 fours and 2 sixes.
While he was at the crease just 19 runs came off the bats of his 8 partners as T&T were eventually dismissed for 237.'


Jamaica bowlers: Courtney Walsh,Franklyn Rose,Nehemiah Perry,Robert Haynes.Remember back then the Port of Spain wicket was difficult.
 

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