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Viv Richards v Sunil Gavaskar

Who was greater?


  • Total voters
    59

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Richards on the other hand would hit you irrespective of the ball being of a good length or not. Gavaskar treated each ball on merit, Richards treated each ball as he wanted. Richards was Tendulkar with Afridi's attitude towards the cricket ball and the bowlers.
I was just about to say something similar in that one of Richard's flaws was that he wanted to dominate before playing himself in and it could be his undoing - as it was on one occasion against the less than legendary Devon Malcolm when he came in and slogged at everything and got out. I always maintain that in a weaker side he would have had a better record. It's no coincidence that his absolute peak of scoring started when he wasn't yet established in the side and the West Indies were not yet dominant. In 1976 in England he dominated the bowling but not until he built his innings in a more traditional manner.
 

Pigeon

Banned
There is a major difference between Gavaskar's and Richards games. Gavaskar played percentage cricket. He would leave alone the really good balls if they were not going onto the stumps and play them with copybok defense if they were; bowl him a half volley or a shortball even in the middle of an hour of defensive batting and he would pounce on it and hit it to the fence. This was a major difference between him and another opener like say Boycott.

Richards on the other hand would hit you irrespective of the ball being of a good length or not. Gavaskar treated each ball on merit, Richards treated each ball as he wanted. Richards was Tendulkar with Afridi's attitude towards the cricket ball and the bowlers.
Richards was Shewag of his day. :happy:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Not very many? Every single game of cricket is, and has, it's own unique circumstances.
I know the statistician will say things even themselves out but in sport that's the lamest argument ever used.
TBH, I know what you are talking about, but they are not that common. What you're ultimatelysuggesting is that even a batsman's career average is irrelevant.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
It is interesting to see what the fast bowlers themselves have to say.

DENNIS LILLEE

Lillee in his book Lillee - Over and Out (1984) writes...
The best batsman of my time? It's a question which has been asked of me so often, before my retirement and since, that if it doesn't come up in the course of a cricket conversation I start to feel neglected.

Choosing your greatest ever batsman is a touch more difficult than selecting your top bowler. For me anyway, the guidelines are not as clear cut. When you start talking in terms of the Richards (Viv and Barry), The Chappells and players like Sobers, Lloyd, Gavaskar, Pollock, Zaheer and Miandad, picking the best is almost like roling the dice. You could go one of three or four ways and not be wrong. It all comes down to personal choice.​
Did anyone listen to those last two sentences? I do hope so. He writes of Sobers "
As a batsman, Sir Garfield was obviously one of the greatest... No I didn't see the best of him, but I saw enough. He is one of the few cricketers from any era whose deeds are still discussed many years after they were performed. I suspect they will continue to be discussed as long as cricket is played. And that is the real measure of greatness.
He says of Gavaskar...
While statistics are not always an infallible guide - or even a fair guide - cricket byits very nature, is a numbers game. And one batsman who by statistics alone must rank among the greatest batsmen is India's Sunil Gavaskar.

His record is quite remarkable - the more so because he is an opener. Like most Indian cricketers, his best performances have been at home. I never played against him in India and I don't think we saw the best of him in Australia because he had trouble adjusting to our bouncier wickets.
Not frightfully complimentary I am afraid :)

He goes on to praise Richards to the sky...

Indeed, if batting is an art, then Viv Richards has been working on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel for years now. But like anyone else, Viv is mortal. Unlike Michelangelo's work, Viv does have weaknesses. I always believed that if I bowled to him six to nine inches outside his off stump, he would eventually lose patience and try to smash one that wasn't quite in the right spot. The chance might go to the slip cordon or to gully or even to the covers if he didn't quite get into it.

Over the years, I think I might have been partly responsible for actually improving the man's off side play, but I still feel that he, like most top-line batsmen, is troubled most by the ball moving outside the off stump.

Unfortunately for us bowlers, Viv's off days are rare and his "on" days are murder if you are unlucky enough to have the ball in your hand. He plays all the shots with great elegance, he has awesome power and he is the most exciting batsman in the world because he produces shots that just can not be found in the instruction manual.

In a batting sense he really is in an orbit apart from any other player, but I can make just one more criticism of Viv. It is something that has only recently appeared in his batting; somehow, every now and then, the great man loses interest. Usually a model of decorum, he has also started to lose his cool occasionally. This has been particularly noticeable when Lloyd, the Eindies long-serving captain, has been unavailable. When Viv has taken over the reins he has at times put tremendous pressure on his team mates.

But while he may play below his expectations from time to time, he does everything but hit the stitches out of the ball when he is in "one of those moods."
Doesn't leave you in mush doubt where he would have voted on this thread, does he? :)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Imran Khan on Sunil Gavaskar

Sunil Gavaskar impressed me greatly on that 1978 tour and has continued to do so ever since. He is the most compact player I've ever bowled to, playing near to his body with a straight bat and has the ability to make late adjustments - a great asset for an opening batsman against the moving ball. He was terribly difficult to dismiss after seeing off the new ball and like Zaheer he loved the flat Pakistani wickets. He might look a little worried when I bounced him but as he didn't play the hook, he was unlikely to play any rash shots.

He always seemed to know where his off-stump was, and his wide array of strokes meant he could easily keep the scoreboard moving in an unspectacular fashion. His greatness lay in the fact that he knew his limitations; he was a more refined version of Geoff Boycott. Gavaskar was always there when his side needed him most; India have been involved in some exciting run chases in the last innings of Tests over the years when a target of over 400 has looked daunting, but each time Gavaskar has played marvelously and brought his team to victory ot pretty close.

His only flaw was against quick bowlers bowling into his body when his lack of height would get him rather tucked up. He would sometimes be in trouble on wickets of uneven bounce because he didn't hook, and was loathe to duck or leave the ball because of the unpredictability of the bounce; apart from that a masterful batsman with a great temperament.
A superb pen-portrait of Gavaskar. One of the finest you will come across. And now onto Viv Richards.

Imran Khan on Viv Richards
Viv Richards was head and shoulders above all the batsmen in WSC and he remains the best player at whom I have ever bowled. The bouncers were wasted on him for he had reflexes like a gunslinger and he was quick enough to hook off the front foot. He didn't bother with a helmet, relying on his superb eye to get him out of trouble.

Over the years the best way to get him out is by boring him; and then chafe when the field is placed in defensive positions. He'll sometimes get frustrated by just taking singles and do something rash. Yet when his side really needs a big innings, Richards is there. A man for a crisis. Of course he plays across the line and you think you've got a chance, but he can hit the ball virtually in any part of the field because he gets into position so quickly.
Short and sweet but makes it clear that he agrees with Lillee :)

Source for both : IMRAN-An Autobiography by Imran Khan (1983)
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I suppose until Cricinfo comes up with the Talking Statsguru we'll just have to rely on the words of people who played against them.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Although the pinnacle of judging a great batsman is the runs you made againts "top-quality attacks". Which is generally used as the guide separate greats of this 2000s era vs greats of the batsmen of the past, which is generally a solid criteria.

But i have never seen the argument of "who smashed the poor attacks the best"?. Since lets be honest, in test history outside outside the 50s, 70s & 90s. Most era's have consisted of most sides have more average to poor attacks, rather than a combination of great attacks in all sides.

Even the greatest of batsmen would fail more times than they succeed againts the greatest of bowlers & it has been proven with Gavaskar & Viv here. So i think there needs to be a fair balance when judging the batsman.

For eg:

- This 2000s era of batsman. One shouldn't automatically put Ponting, Hayden, Kallis, KP etc behind greats of the past era just because of the deafult position they have of playing in an era of flat tracks & average bowlers. But we should look at the runs they did make againts the top pace-attacks they faced even though it was very few.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Richards was Shewag of his day. :happy:
No. Since Viv at his peak based on all who played againts him had no serious technical flaws like what Sehwag has. Those deficiencies Sir Viv had came at the end of his career.
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
No. Since Viv at his peak based on all who played againts him had no serious technical flaws like what Sehwag has. Those deficiencies Sir Viv had came at the end of his career.
:laugh:

Just remembered that quote battle in the other thread.
 

Pigeon

Banned
Although the pinnacle of judging a great batsman is the runs you made againts "top-quality attacks". Which is generally used as the guide separate greats of this 2000s era vs greats of the batsmen of the past, which is generally a solid criteria.

But i have never seen the argument of "who smashed the poor attacks the best"?. Since lets be honest, in test history outside outside the 50s, 70s & 90s. Most era's have consisted of most sides have more average to poor attacks, rather than a combination of great attacks in all sides.

Even the greatest of batsmen would fail more times than they succeed againts the greatest of bowlers & it has been proven with Gavaskar & Viv here. So i think there needs to be a fair balance when judging the batsman.

For eg:

- This 2000s era of batsman. One shouldn't automatically put Ponting, Hayden, Kallis, KP etc behind greats of the past era just because of the deafult position they have of playing in an era of flat tracks & average bowlers. But we should look at the runs they did make againts the top pace-attacks they faced even though it was very few.
:clap: Will quote you on that quatothon war thread mate!
 

Pigeon

Banned
No. Since Viv at his peak based on all who played againts him had no serious technical flaws like what Sehwag has. Those deficiencies Sir Viv had came at the end of his career.
:laugh:

Seriously mate, I need to start putting the [/joke] tags I guess.
 

Pigeon

Banned
Please could you stop making these nonsense statements, what next Prasanna was Harbhajan Singh of his day ?
Who are you humour police?

BTW there is more credibility to call Prasanna the Bhajji of his day. In fact Bhajji is better than Prasanna imo.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
BTW there is more credibility to call Prasanna the Bhajji of his day. In fact Bhajji is better than Prasanna imo.
Good that you said 'imo', without it the statement made no sense, like the previous one.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Have just read this thread moreorless from start to finish and there's some really interesting stuff within. None of it has particularly changed my opinion - I still rate Richards as a phenomenal batsman who is overrated by those who think him second to Bradman, and still rate Gavaskar as a superb opener, one of the best ever, who nonetheless had circumstances conspire a little in his favour in terms of various weak attacks - but it's fascinating nonetheless.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Richards on the other hand would hit you irrespective of the ball being of a good length or not. Gavaskar treated each ball on merit, Richards treated each ball as he wanted. Richards was Tendulkar with Afridi's attitude towards the cricket ball and the bowlers.
It is interesting to see what the fast bowlers themselves have to say.

DENNIS LILLEE


Usually a model of decorum, he has also started to lose his cool occasionally. This has been particularly noticeable when Lloyd, the Eindies long-serving captain, has been unavailable. When Viv has taken over the reins he has at times put tremendous pressure on his team mates.

But while he may play below his expectations from time to time, he does everything but hit the stitches out of the ball when he is in "one of those moods"


Imran Khan on Viv Richards

Over the years the best way to get him out is by boring him; and then chafe when the field is placed in defensive positions. He'll sometimes get frustrated by just taking singles and do something rash.


SJS, the statistical analysis you performed on Richards against the great pace attacks can be explained by the above statements. In short, Richards was an aggressive batsman looking to dominate no matter who the bowler or the situation. He also would lose patience or get bored, leading to his throwing his wicket away. That is definately a flaw that should be counted against him, but it is due to his own temperament, not any weakness against fast bowling. That is an important distinction IMO.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Good that you said 'imo', without it the statement made no sense, like the previous one.
TBF, although i never saw Prasanna live. I dont think its that OTT of a view. Based on what i've seen on video Prasanna defiantely has the most perfect off-spinners action i've seen, second only to Laker. Statistically its pretty close though.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Y'know, I have absolutely no idea why this perception that Viv would get bored and get out persists. I've read his autobio, seen interviews with him, etc. and it's abundantly clear he was as fierce a competitor as anyone and would never just lose interest in the contest and decide he's had enough (no-one with that attitude would play Test cricket for very long). From what I saw of him which, admittedly, wasn't that much, combined with what I've read more strongly suggests that what SJS said earlier fits far better; had a desire to dominate for himself and the team which sometimes proved his undoing.
 

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