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Viv Richards v Sunil Gavaskar

Who was greater?


  • Total voters
    59

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
SJS, the statistical analysis you performed on Richards against the great pace attacks can be explained by the above statements. In short, Richards was an aggressive batsman looking to dominate no matter who the bowler or the situation. He also would lose patience or get bored, leading to his throwing his wicket away. That is definately a flaw that should be counted against him, but it is due to his own temperament, not any weakness against fast bowling. That is an important distinction IMO.
Y'know, I have absolutely no idea why this perception that Viv would get bored and get out persists. I've read his autobio, seen interviews with him, etc. and it's abundantly clear he was as fierce a competitor as anyone and would never just lose interest in the contest and decide he's had enough (no-one with that attitude would play Test cricket for very long). From what I saw of him which, admittedly, wasn't that much, combined with what I've read more strongly suggests that what SJS said earlier fits far better; had a desire to dominate for himself and the team which sometimes proved his undoing.
Its very difficult to exactly 'cubby-hole' a players 'issues' with technique, temperament, etc. Often times one could be the cause or effect of the other.

I too have felt, like TC, that Richards did not get 'bored' as Lillee suggests. Of course he liked to give the impression that he wasn't taking "all this drama too seriously" all through the time he was at the crease; from the instant he walked out to face the very first ball. That was part of his swagger and persona. It was the "you-guys-are-just-kids-in-the-park" attitude he conveyed to opponents when he had the bat in hand. But couldn't this attitude lead to his downfall just as Sehwag's "I-am-like-that-only" leads to his.

The answer has to be - probably yes. But thats all right. A player stuck with a completely defensive mind-set can also be led to his end when a sudden bad ball comes along and he isn't able to handle it as he should be able to do in his sleep.

This attitude of Richards (or Sehwag though I am not suggesting he is as great a batsman as Richards) to dominate would surely increase the percentage of risk involved in his batting. We can look at it as a weakness and denounce him or look at his fifty plus batting average inspite of it and stand in complete awe of the man.

When Richards played without a helmet, he was not just making a statement as far as the fast bowlers of the day were concerned he was also relying on his fabulously quick reflexes and wonderful eyesight to prevent a bad injury. The fact that he did avoid getting hurt in a long career is a testimony to his gifts but the risk was surely there.

Simlarly when you try to play with his aggressive intent, surely you increase the chances of the odd mistake you are likely to commit when the really good ball comes along. The fact that the real fast bowling leaves you with so little time to react for late adjustments makes the risk that much greater. Again we can point to it as a weakness or admire him for performing as he did and yet produced such tremendous results.

The problem I see here, on this thread as well as others like it, is the desire or compulsion (you can find a better word I am sure) of some posters to pin the great player down on one side or the other of the argument. Unfortunately, thats not going to happen except in our own small heads because whosoever maybe your favourite, these are great players you are comparing.

Late last night, after leaving my PC and the CW world behind, I went to bed reading the autobiography of the great umpire from the first half of the 20th century, Frank Chester. I came across a wonderful chapter which reminded me of this debate on this very thread. I really thought I would quote two halfs of the same chapter here and ask the members of CW to try and guess who wrote each piece. Trust me, if I hadn't let the cat out of the bag no one could have said it was written by the same person. But it was and in the same chapter. There was just one paragraph at the beginning that I would have to omit and one sentence between the two parts.

The chapter is titled Hobbs v. Bradman. Read the first half and you are convinced that it could be anyone of Bradman's millions of 'devotees' for he leaves you in n doubt that he considers Bradman the greatest batsman of all times. Read the second and you will consider him to be someone who is obviously English and who could not stand Bradman's success (if you disagree with what he says) or someone who knows his cricket and is willing to call a spade a spade (if you agree).

The fact of the matter is that he is both an Englishman and a Bradman fan and there is no dichotomy in what he writes. To see that you have to stop thinking that even though he was the greatest batsman of all time, Bradman was perfect - because he wasn't. No one is. So why should we expect our Gavaskar's and our Sir Vivian's to be perfect and flawless.

Lillee clearly states that he considers Richards the finest batsman of his times and uses very powerful (for Lillee) imagery of Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel to make that point. Why isn't that enough for us. Why should we think that if he talks of Richards' weakness outside the off stump to an away swinger (or even to his getting bored) somehow he is being critical which is not correct.

This is what we need to ask ourselves in this and other debates,

By the way, for those who haven't read it, Frank Chester's "How's that!" is probably the finest cricket book from an umpire and highly recommended. It is full of insights and portraits of some of the greatest players Chester saw from just 22 yards away for decades.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
By the way, I had a very poor opinion of Viv Richards when I first saw him bat; or rather after I had seen him batting for over an hour !

India were playing West Indies at Feroze Shah Kotla in December 1974. I bunked office, feigning sickness, to go and watch. India had been trounced by 267 runs in the first Test at Bangalore. Only one Indian batsman had reached fifty in the two innings put together - the unheralded Hemant Kanitkar. Centuries by Lloyd (a big one), Greenidge (he also got a ninety in the other innings) and Kallicharan showed us that India were done in on a wicket that wasn't unplayable. No one noticed the man batting at number four in that great West Indies line up; his 4 and 3 in the two innings in this his debut Test did not impress; and his three run outs at the World Cup were yet to come.

At the Kotla, India were bowled out again for a low score (220) and another relatively 'small' player, Parthasarthy Sharma was the only one managing a fifty; Sudhir Naik (of the socks fame) scored 48; India's big guns were yet to boom before Andy Roberts, Gibbs and company. West Indies had about ten minutes to bat on day one they sent in keeper Murray with Greenidge to see out the day and Murray came back in Solkar's first over. They sent in anothe night watchman instead of Fredericks, leg spinner Willett, and we went home happy with Windies four for 1.

Next day Willett stayed longer than Greenidg but by the time 73 runs were scored, both were gone and Richards walked in for his third Test innings; yet to score his tenth run at this level. We settled down for another Prasanna victim (he had taken both Greenidge and Willett that morning for next to nothing) and it looked like it would happen any minute.

Bedi and Prasanna really tormented Richards. He really really struggled. He was completely at sea. I have no idea how he survived that first hour or 90 minutes at the crease. In the meantime Kallicharan fell to Bedi with the score at 123 and Lloyd joined Richards. Till he reached his fifty, Richards looked as id he had no clue on how to play quality spin. Of course, what eventually happened is history. He and Lloyd took the score to 248 and then Richards with first Julien and then Boyce for company, went on to score an unbeaten 192. But I went away from that match with a terrible feeling of how this man who looked so inept during those first forty odd runs was allowed to score so many. That impression stayed with me for many years and Richards had to demolish many attacks around the world before I would admit him into my private pantheon of greats.

He did not play India in India again till 1983-84 when the great trio of spinners was gone but he did play them in West Indies in 1975-76 and took three centuries off them and an average of close to hundred. But that wasn't good enough for me. I kept wondering what would have happened if India had cleaned him up again in that Delhi Test. Of course I was wrong. He was just too good to be subdued by a couple of failures.

But on that day at the Kotla there was no swagger, no arrogance, no "come-let-me-show-you-where-you-and-your-ball-belong" attitude from him for what have been about 90 minutes of play. I remember many great innings of Richards and they run like a film reel before my eyes but the first part of that innings at Kotla is the most vivid of them all.

:)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Lillee clearly states that he considers Richards the finest batsman of his times and uses very powerful (for Lillee) imagery of Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel to make that point. Why isn't that enough for us. Why should we think that if he talks of Richards' weakness outside the off stump to an away swinger (or even to his getting bored) somehow he is being critical which is not correct.

This is what we need to ask ourselves in this and other debates.
Key point SJS sir. Its basically the same thing when McGrath was asked about who he thought was better between Lara n Tendy. His ridiculment of Lara's mentality while batting didn't meant he didn't rate him, just an observation.
 

slippyslip

U19 12th Man
What makes a bolwing attack bad? By not taking wickets and habing a lot of runs scored against them - usually at the hands of "great" batsmen.

Richards made bowlers look worse than they actually were.

Sure some bowlers like Imran and Lillee had success against Viv. But if they didnt they succeed against guys like Viv they would be classed as great themselves.

I disagree with the idea that a batsman's record against class bowlers is the only thing that counts. Part of being a batsman is scoring a lot of runs against weaker opponents. Thats how you win. And thats why they're weaker opponents - because your top players dominate them.

Mark Waugh was a guy who had a lot of great innings against quality opposition. Should we classify him as great instead of just good? But he was also a guy that failed on many occasions to plunder bad opposition bowlers.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Part of being a batsman is scoring a lot of runs against weaker opponents.
And Richards was, by the standards of his batsmanship against good bowling, not very good at this. That's the biggest thing that holds him back. If he was better at this, then yeah, maybe he might have been the second-best after Bradman that some hail him as. But he wasn't, so to my mind, he isn't.
 

MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
Which overly weak bowling attack did Richards face in his career:

India: Chandra, Prasana later Dev and co
NZL: Hadlee, CHatfield
Eng: Underwood, Willis, Botham, Hendrick (not great but good), Chris Old
Aust: Thompson, Pascoe, Hogg, Lillee, Mcdermott, Hughes, Alderman etc
Pak: Qasim, Qadir, Imran, Akram

Viv never played SL of his time unlike many of his contemporaries therefore he always came up against relatively good attacks and certainly none that were minnow-esque.
 

Dissector

International Debutant
I would imagine the Australian attack he faced in 84-85 was pretty weak. As also the Indian attack in 1983. And really Chatfield was hardly that good a bowler so the NZ attack in his time was pretty poor as well.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I've seen some pretty lame arguments involving the merit or otherwise of Viv Richards in my time but the one proclaiming his failure to fill his boots against lesser bowling attacks deserves a gold medal.
 

Dissector

International Debutant
Incidentally I did some calculations on his performances during the World Series where he probably faced the highest quality of bowling in his career. He was superb in the first year in 77-78 and quite poor in the second year in 78-79. His overall average was around 45 which is pretty good considering the quality of bowling he faced. Overall it doesn't affect my perception of Richards one way or another; it is about what I would have expected from him but certainly it is not a superlative performance.
 
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MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
I would imagine the Australian attack he faced in 84-85 was pretty weak. As also the Indian attack in 1983. And really Chatfield was hardly that good a bowler so the NZ attack in his time was pretty poor as well.
Not with a certain Mr Hadlee in tow. IMO the NZL attacks of Viv's time were a class above current NZ attacks (outside of those with Shane Bond).
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
He was superb in the first year in 77-78 and quite poor in the second year in 78-79. His overall average was around 45 which is pretty good considering the quality of bowling he faced.
Richards' WSC stats were 1,281 runs at 55.69 - considerably better than an overall average of 45.

Incidentally, and related to an earlier discussion in the thread, Greg Chappell's figures were even better.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Sean, if you were a man for such comparisons, how would you rate Greg Chappell v Viv Richards?
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Sean, if you were a man for such comparisons, how would you rate Greg Chappell v Viv Richards?
If I had to pick one of them I'd pick Viv - I've always been of the opinion that Viv is the greatest batsman I've ever seen. Like many on here though I think that Chappell is heavily underrated when discussing the great Test batsmen and the gap between the two is much closer than modern-day public opinion would perhaps indicate.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
So what are you abiding memories of Greg? (never saw him play myself but have read a lot about him - "best onside player ever to play the game" etc).
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
So what are you abiding memories of Greg? (never saw him play myself but have read a lot about him - "best onside player ever to play the game" etc).
I only caught Greg live toward the end of his career and while he was still a superb player to leg, particularly strong off his pads, by this time he was the most glorious of off-side players. He was a supreme stylist all around the wicket of course, but his off- and cover drives during the second half of his career were works of art.

I understand that earlier in his career he was predominantly an on side player and his drive wide of mid-on - the shot Bill O'Reilly always considred to be "the hallmark of class" - was something of a signature. Due to my age I've only seen the early Greg Chappell in footage, though a few of our older boys (SJS. Burgey, LT, Fred) can no doubt add more from their own experiences.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
I only caught Greg live toward the end of his career and while he was still a superb player to leg, particularly strong off his pads, by this time he was the most glorious of off-side players. He was a supreme stylist all around the wicket of course, but his off- and cover drives during the second half of his career were works of art.

I understand that earlier in his career he was predominantly an on side player and his drive wide of mid-on - the shot Bill O'Reilly always considred to be "the hallmark of class" - was something of a signature. Due to my age I've only seen the early Greg Chappell in footage, though a few of our older boys (SJS. Burgey, LT, Fred) can no doubt add more from their own experiences.
In those days we didn't see overseas Test Matches live on TV so I only saw him bat "live" (either in the flesh or on live TV) in England where his record is not that good. He made a couple of centuries on his first tour in 1972 (but I saw little of it as I was at primary school, and I've still got a little yellow radio which I kept in my desk to follow the score) but produced very few innings of note on subsequent tours. He wasn't quite in the Doug Walters league of failing in England but we didn't see the best of him.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
One did not get to see Greg Chappell live (as in being at the ground) but enough on TV. He was a fabulous batsman in a rather upright manner. You see him batting and you come away with the mental picture of a batsman who doesn't flex much at the knees; not true I know but thats the impression he gave of his overall batting style. Secondly he seemed to play a lot in the 'V', which of course goes with the first point, with a special affinity for the straight and on drive. He was very elegant and the power of his strokes came from great sense of timing.

Richards, on the other hand, appeared to have a lower 'center of gravity' as he made his strokes. Of course, when he played on the rise, he would just stand erect and dispatch the ball to any corner of the field that caught his fancy but overall he did bend more at the knees. This also meant that you saw him driving relatively more to the covers and more ready to pounce on the shorter delivery and play square on either side. It wouldn't be wrong to call Chappell a predominantly front foot (as a preference not a limitation) player while Richards was more likely, relatively, to play off the back foot; which is typically West Indian any way besides the fact that Richards was a shorter man I think.

Richards shots were more brutal and while he had to have great timing as any batsman of that caliber, timing was not what you though of when he sent the ball screaming to the fence. Chappell never made the ball 'scream" :)

Its really difficult to rank them but from whatever one has read about both these greats by those who played with or against them (or by old cricketers) its clear that everyone rated Chappell as the finest Australian batsman since Bradman while most rate Richards as the finest they saw. That is a subtle difference but it is a difference.

I would say, both represented the best of their cultures and the batting traditions of their own lands which also meant that Richards was perhaps more naturally gifted and, if I dare add, a more complete batsman; but mine is a small voice :)
 

Dissector

International Debutant
Richards' WSC stats were 1,281 runs at 55.69 - considerably better than an overall average of 45.

Incidentally, and related to an earlier discussion in the thread, Greg Chappell's figures were even better.
Do you have a source for that? I calculated the average quickly from the scorecards; perhaps I missed something.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Dissector, perhaps you were just calculating Viv's performances for WSC West Indies, but forgetting to include his innings for the WSC World XI?
 

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