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*Official* Fourth Test at Headingley

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Or maybe they actually have observed him in nets etc and know that he wasn't fit enough or something?
Well given the tactics going into the 3rd test was to pick Watson in place of Hughes because they where sure he could bowl as an all-rounder & he bowled that utter rubbish, the credibility of the team management should be in question.

AFAIC is just the ideological premise of not wanting to pick 4-seamers.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
How did it go in 07? I can't remember for sure, but didn't Sidey swing us to an innings win?
Headingley is easily the strangest ground in England in that in bright sunshine it is as flat as any pitch going around and then when there's cloud cover or moisture in the air, the ball starts to move around all over the place. Over the past decade, teams have scored 500+ whilst teams have been dismissed for less than 150 in the same test match.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I'm going to assume that you've missed a lot of cricket at Headingley over this decade then.....
Ha, well its off my head ATM. Wasn't a sure statement.

In 2001, it swung early when Pigeon took 7, but defiantely got flat at least to the end of the test when Butcher scored 173.

Cant remember anything from 02

03, oh yes it swung that year. Remember Kallis taking a 6 wicket haul

NZ 04 hmm, maybe a little. But not significant.

05 no tests

06 was flat

07 the swing Sidebottom got againts was woefully exaggerated by the poor techniques of the WI batsmen.

08 flat.

So only in 2000 on 2003 has it swung the traditional Leeds style.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
Headingley is easily the strangest ground in England in that in bright sunshine it is as flat as any pitch going around and then when there's cloud cover or moisture in the air, the ball starts to move around all over the place. Over the past decade, teams have scored 500+ whilst teams have been dismissed for less than 150 in the same test match.
That happened last summer against Saffa pretty much, gloomy Friday saw them swing us out, then they racked up what felt like a thousand
 

Pigeon

Banned

PhoenixFire

International Coach
I've probably seen more cricket at Headingley than any one else here (without sounding ****y or whatever) and nearly every game I have seen there has ended up with at least one team getting a below par score even when it has been sunny. Not sure what to make of that.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
aussie said:
07 the swing Sidebottom got againts was woefully exaggerated by the poor techniques of the WI batsmen.
So the ball takes into account the quality of the batsman before deciding whether to swing or not?

It doesn't matter how many wickets he got or how good the batsmen were - he swung the ball around corners in that game.
 

four_or_six

Cricketer Of The Year
Well given the tactics going into the 3rd test was to pick Watson in place of Hughes because they where sure he could bowl as an all-rounder & he bowled that utter rubbish, the credibility of the team management should be in question.

AFAIC is just the ideological premise of not wanting to pick 4-seamers.
Actually, they were stressing that it was as much a batting decision as a bowling one, and personally I think that even if it was a 100% batting decision you could at least make a case for it. And yeah, he definitely bowled rubbish, but he's not the only Aussie seamer this series that's started off with three overs of rubbish.
 

PhoenixFire

International Coach
Actually, they were stressing that it was as much a batting decision as a bowling one, and personally I think that even if it was a 100% batting decision you could at least make a case for it. And yeah, he definitely bowled rubbish, but he's not the only Aussie seamer this series that's started off with three overs of rubbish.
Yeah agree with the part about it would make sense if it was 100% about batting (which it couldn't have been). Watson has looked pretty damn good when I've seen him, a lot better than Hughes has.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Oh, and anyone who talks down Swann's efforts in the West Indies..
  • Didn't watch him actually bowl in that series.
  • Didn't see how ridiculously flat the pitches were.
  • Didn't witness the lack of support he was getting.
  • Criminally under-rates Chanderpaul and Sarwan against spin.
Indeed, and lets just throw the fact that Murali averaged over 30 when he toured the WI only a year before against a similar batting side.

No matter how many times I watch the 2 bowl, I simply cannot fathom how Hauritz has more variations than Swann. The only variation Hauritz has is throwing the ball a bit further up in the air. Swann, on the other hand, I feel spends too much time trying too many different things that he forgets about the reliability of his stock ball and sticking to the basics of line and length. This is why he bowls soo many goddamn full tosses.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Interesting squad. If Fred is indeed ruled out, I hope Sidebottom comes in for Broad and have Trott as the extra batsman. Andy Flower said no matter what Ravi will be batting at 3, so Trott if he does play he will bat 6, Prior 7.

Watch out if Trott plays for the LBW, his more onside than Ravi...
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Ha & Mahmood is a swing bowler right?. Thats was a flat pitch hands down.

So. That doesn't mean it was a seamers deck, thats was just Hoggard utilizing the conditions in that innings.


Leeds was flat last year no question. Stop stats picking, Morkel aint no swing bowler come on now. England's 1st innings collapse was down to poor selection & batting.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Sorry Richard but it's Eng against Aus in Eng

Swann is averaging NEARLY 60 inthis series because whether away or at home, he is a very average bowler against this Oz batting lineup

Horses for courses and Eng have backed the wrong horse
I don't particularly like repeating myself but sometimes it's neccessary.

I'm not talking about who's backed the right horse, but whether Swann or Hauritz is a better bowler.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
So why is his FC average 33, shouldn't he be ripping through hapless English batsmen on receptive pitches.
England won't always bat this badly against nothing spin as they have this series. In any case, Swann's First-Class career, like any lengthy career, is not summed-up by one single figure.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
So the ball takes into account the quality of the batsman before deciding whether to swing or not?

It doesn't matter how many wickets he got or how good the batsmen were - he swung the ball around corners in that game.
No i'm just saying a better team would have played Sidebottom better. It was just like @ Durham again this, if your technique is bad you will be awful over. Lendl Simmons woes is a perfect example.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Rob Key unlucky not to get the call, his recent form has been superb and his been there and done that but he's coach isn't an England selector.:whistling
 
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Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Interesting squad. If Fred is indeed ruled out, I hope Sidebottom comes in for Broad and have Trott as the extra batsman. Andy Flower said no matter what Ravi will be batting at 3, so Trott if he does play he will bat 6, Prior 7.
Yeah, agree strongly. I don't think Flintoff will be fit so I'd be picking this:

1. Cook
2. Strauss
3. Bopara
4. Bell
5. Collingwood
6. Trott
7. Prior
8. Swann
9. Anderson
10. Sidebottom
11. Onions

There's an understandable case for picking Broad is Flintoff is fit and batting seven (balances the team, fifth bowler not as important, batting is weakened with Flintoff, 1-0 etc etc), but with Sidebottom having just taken a bag, the game being in Leeds, Broad averaging about 70 in the series and Prior batting 7, there's little case for his selection if Flintoff's out.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
No i'm just saying a better team would have played Sidebottom better. It was just like @ Durham again this, if your technique is bad you will be awful over. Lendl Simmons woes is a perfect example.
Not really relevant to whether the ball swung or not though, is it?

Even if Sidebottom had somehow managed to take 0 wickets in that game bowling how he did, he still swung the ball around - it doesn't change that fact.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
When I saw him play last summer he was more overweight then Gough, slower on the speed-gun than Gough, and looked completely ineffective. Granted, it was a one-day game, and he's never held them in any regard, but given that performance I could understand why he was no longer playing for England.
As I say, if there were legions of quality bowlers banging in the figures like Hoggard still is despite the cosmetic effect he may convey, then his exclusion would make sense. When he's being overlooked for Darren Pattinson, Amjad Khan and Stuart Broad, it doesn't.

And Gough has always been quicker than Hoggard. All career. Not remotely surprising to hear that. Gough simply has more talent for pace than Hoggard.
 

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