Should Brett Lee be selected for the Ashes?

[Noble One]

I've said my piece on Williams before now. Very fortunate to bowl in the dew against NZ in the TVS Cup, against Zimbabwe in the VB Series and against an India that was finally running-out of steam in said same tourno.

Had he had a longer ODI career I don't doubt he'd have conceded 4.7-4.8-an-over or so at an average of over 30. He just wasn't very good.

Feel you are judging Brad Williams harshly, despite taking every opportunity at ODI level.

His first major contribution during the 02/03 VB series he bowled quite well. Hard to begrudge a bowler who managed to keep things tight and take wickets in every game. Then in combination with Brett Lee to essentially have the 1st Final wrapped up after the opening spell, not bad for a cricketer in his 5th game.

His record during that series was fantastic, but he actually looked a good bowler. I remember he was pushing into the low 140 kph range and getting a touch of outswing going. Combined with his usual aggressive approach made him a pretty handy opening bowler.

The TVS Cup performance was inflated by two superb performances against New Zealand. But poor bowlers regardless of conditions don't take 4 and 5 wicket hauls against a very useful batting lineup. Williams still bowled well against India in the other games. I remember in the Final despite Laxman giving him some stick he bowled him with a peach of a delivery. Doing well for a cricketer who has now played 13 games and played a role in the victory in two ODI series.

Then his 03/04 performance in the VB series was hard to fault. Economic, regularly taking early wickets; and yet again playing his role in the Finals series.

Regardless, in 25 ODI games he achieved an incredible record that is difficult to really fault. Managed to play a hand in the victory in three ODI tournaments. And surely showed enough that he was actually a very potent bowler when injury allowed him to play (sadly not the case for much of his career).

When fit, Williams was always regarded as one of the best pure fast bowlers in Australia. The hype that surrounded him during his first couple seasons for Victoria was very much justified. He was regarded as the quickest bowler in the country, and barring injury was expected to have an impact at international level. Injury never allowed him to become the bowler he occasionally hinted at, but he still managed to make a mark on international cricket which for the limited games he managed is some achievement.

A cricketer who could bowl 140kph pace, swing the ball, and had an aggressive attitude; fantastic combination. We should all be dissapointed that we never got to see the best out of Williams for longer.

 

[Richard]

Hmm, I'd say we should be disappointed that we never got to see that he was in fact a very average bowler by international standards - but I'd agree fully that there's no way we can be absolutely certain about him, so I'll have to say we agree to differ.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah it's definitely true that Vic excised him from the squad more for being off the park with injury than ability. Early days, he was a quicker bowler and swung the ball. A consistent run for Vic would have seen him in the Test side years ago.

 

[Noble One]

Williams gained massive hype after his return from the Young Australians tour of England in 1995.

He impressed a number of selectors and cricketing observers with his pace and swing. I remember reading an article at the time that tipped him for the Test side within the next two years. His performances for Victoria really dropped away after that, then the injuries started.

 

[Richard]

I imagine being a rank **** didn't help much either.

 

[Noble One]

I imagine being a rank **** didn't help much either.

Yeah spot on. Retained such a poor attitude throughout his career. Had one of the more inglorious ends to a first class career at WA.

 

[DaRick]

I know it's a completely different format, but I've been very unimpressed at the way he's bowled thus far.

You know, I did think that he deserved a place in limited-overs sides, but not based on this. His action looks out of sync, he bowled far too many no-balls and he bowled without intelligence, not firing it in at the stumps enough.

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun, but if this is what he has to offer, he can stay in the sheds for the Ashes.

 

[Woodster]

I would be happier if his name was not included when we get down to business at Cardiff in just under 4 weeks time. His rhythm and bowling in the Twenty20 may not have been at its best but plenty can happen between now and July 8, there is a lot of cricket to be played before then. I expect him to be in the XI.

 

[Manee]

Lee's pace was up, which signals that he is close to fully fit; surely that was the main hurdle. The fact that his bowling was vulnerable to back away cut shots and other T20 inventions surely says little about Test cricket. It is not like he has been terrible since his injury either, he did very well in warm up games and during the IPL.

 

[TT Boy]

Lee's pace was up, which signals that he is close to fully fit; surely that was the main hurdle. The fact that his bowling was vulnerable to back away cut shots and other T20 inventions surely says little about Test cricket. It is not like he has been terrible since his injury either, he did very well in warm up games and during the IPL.

Getting the ball to do something might also be helpful. No matter how quick he was he was gun-barrel.

 

[Manee]

Getting the ball to do something might also be helpful. No matter how quick he was he was gun-barrel.

Has Lee ever got considerable movement? Does a lack of movement in two T20s indicate that his injury has somehow removed his ability to move the ball, I doubt it. I know I am overly pace orientated, but a bowler's speed and consistent match fitness are reliable measures (though not exhaustive) of a players match fitness. T20s are not a reasonable time to assess qualitative Test credentials, imo.

 

[Richard]

Has Lee ever got considerable movement?

Yes, certainly has. I've seen him make it go all over the shop at various times, though almost always in the same direction.

Does a lack of movement in two T20s indicate that his injury has somehow removed his ability to move the ball, I doubt it.

Probably not, but it's some sort of inkling, and something I'd be concerned about if I was trying to make Lee do as well as possible.

 

[Top_Cat]

Has Lee ever got considerable movement? Does a lack of movement in two T20s indicate that his injury has somehow removed his ability to move the ball, I doubt it. I know I am overly pace orientated, but a bowler's speed and consistent match fitness are reliable measures (though not exhaustive) of a players match fitness. T20s are not a reasonable time to assess qualitative Test credentials, imo.

Precisely why he shouldn't be in contention for a Test spot right now.

Anyway, whilst his speed and match fitness are pretty good, the difference between Lee for most of his career and Lee in that golden run of his was his consistent line/length because he didn't move that ball *that* much in the 12 months. That there is the big missing ingredient right now, for mine.

 

[DaRick]

Lee's pace was up, which signals that he is close to fully fit; surely that was the main hurdle. The fact that his bowling was vulnerable to back away cut shots and other T20 inventions surely says little about Test cricket. It is not like he has been terrible since his injury either, he did very well in warm up games and during the IPL.

It does say that he is not bowling with any sort of intelligence right now. You don't bowl short and conceed a lot of no-balls in T20. I don't care how quick he is; if his action looks out of sync and he's bowling like a moron, it makes little difference.

You see, during his 2007/08 golden run, Brett Lee bowled with a lot of intelligence. Sure, he still had some pace, but he chose to cut it back when necessary. It's also worth noting that he just didn't try to blast batsmen out using two lengths - he out-thought his batsmen, too. Look at his spell to Dravid and Tendulkar in Perth, for instance. It was wonderful bowling.

When he's bowling like this, I really don't want him in the side.

However, perhaps I should wait for the county games. If he really rips it up, then I'd be happier to see him in the First XI. He shouldn't be a lock for the First XI right now, though.

 

[Smith]

Sad to see people judging Lee based on a few performances in T20s since his comeback. I fully back him to come good during the Ashes.

 

[four_or_six]

I thought Lee bowled reasonably in the second T20 game. His figures didn't tell the whole story at all, because it was like five dot balls, then a no-ball which cost eight runs, for example. That happened a couple of times.

 

[Smith]

I thought Lee bowled reasonably in the second T20 game. His figures didn't tell the whole story at all, because it was like five dot balls, then a no-ball which cost eight runs, for example. That happened a couple of times.

Agreed. He is bowling well for most part but screws up his figures with a bad ball or two. I won't read much into the WI match because any bowler against Gayle on his day would suffer the same fate. It is plain bull **** to read anything from those performances for test preparation. Or else Stuart Broad should not be playing the Ashes or for that matter any cricket for England.

 

[GIMH]

What a ridiculous comment regarding Broad. Completely irrelevant, and incorrect as well. Broad had a mare in the field but hasn't bowled badly

 

[Manee]

Precisely why he shouldn't be in contention for a Test spot right now.

Anyway, whilst his speed and match fitness are pretty good, the difference between Lee for most of his career and Lee in that golden run of his was his consistent line/length because he didn't move that ball *that* much in the 12 months. That there is the big missing ingredient right now, for mine.

Comparing a line and length in a T20 to a Test is very difficult. For starters, the first four overs for a bowler in a Test match has little indication of the performance in the whole. Moreover, a bowler would be aiming for different line and lengths in T20 than in Tests.

 

[Manee]

It does say that he is not bowling with any sort of intelligence right now. You don't bowl short and conceed a lot of no-balls in T20. I don't care how quick he is; if his action looks out of sync and he's bowling like a moron, it makes little difference.

You see, during his 2007/08 golden run, Brett Lee bowled with a lot of intelligence. Sure, he still had some pace, but he chose to cut it back when necessary. It's also worth noting that he just didn't try to blast batsmen out using two lengths - he out-thought his batsmen, too. Look at his spell to Dravid and Tendulkar in Perth, for instance. It was wonderful bowling.

When he's bowling like this, I really don't want him in the side.

However, perhaps I should wait for the county games. If he really rips it up, then I'd be happier to see him in the First XI. He shouldn't be a lock for the First XI right now, though.

He bowled with great intelligence in the IPL and T20 warm ups, just because these aren't the most recent of his games, must they be ignored?