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Should Brett Lee be selected for the Ashes?

Should Brett Lee be picked for the Ashes, and if so, who misses out?

  • Yes - Johnson misses out

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes - Siddle misses out

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't think I was suggesting that a pure number of wickets taken throughout a career is important, but merely that method of wickets (with a short wide one or full straight one) is irrelevant over an entire career.
If someone gets wickets constantly over a career with short, wide crap deliveries, then they have indeed not bowled remotely well and merely been ridiculously fortunate.

However, fortunately this has never happened and is exceptionally unlikely ever to do.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Like I said before....don't play down the man's achievements.
I'll play down what I want to play down, because Lee has really not achieved anything of great note. He's a very moderate Test bowler - for much of his career he's been out-and-out poor, and occasionally sensational.

And the number of wickets he's taken is completely irrelevant.
 

Uppercut

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Yes. However, as with selection, you cannot in my view simply say "it worked so therefore it was the right thing to bowl and those responsible should be credited".
Sometimes, yes- over a whole career it's harder to make a case against him. It's a subtle mix of pace, movement, bounce, how difficult the bowler's action is to pick up, their cricketing nous, and a lot of other things that determines how likely a bowler is to take wickets. How many wickets they get is generally a more reliable indicator of how good they are at taking wickets than what we can decipher from watching on TV.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If a bowler is getting wickets via said "method" sufficiently infrequently to average 40, however, it's hardly great bowling, is it?

And the same is true if they have a couple of games where they happen to be gifted them much more regularly.
 

Uppercut

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If a bowler is getting wickets via said "method" sufficiently infrequently to average 40, however, it's hardly great bowling, is it?

And the same is true if they have a couple of games where they happen to be gifted them much more regularly.
Nope- but then they'd be a 40-averaging bowler. No more, no less. Whereas Brett Lee was a 29-averaging bowler in the period i pinpointed, when you insist he was much worse than this.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'm talking about a couple of Test matches - the Fourth and Fifth Tests in 2006/07. Not 2005/06 - as I say, he bowled OK then. He bowled poorly in 2006/07, got the figures he deserved in the first three, then was grossly flattered by them in the last two.
 

Nate

You'll Never Walk Alone
If someone gets wickets constantly over a career with short, wide crap deliveries, then they have indeed not bowled remotely well and merely been ridiculously fortunate.

However, fortunately this has never happened and is exceptionally unlikely ever to do.
 

Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
When are people going to learn that arguing with Richard over Brett Lee (and Stuart Macgill or Matthew Hayden for that matter) is like bashing your head between 2 brick walls?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
How was Williams bad?.

He was a pretty good back-up ODI bowler. Shown by his excellent 2003/04 performances in the TVS Cup & VB series 2004.

He probably wouldn't have been that much as a test match bowler. But he did bowl on some road vs IND & SRI. ATM i'd say Willians of the late 03 early 04 period, is at least on par Hilfenhaus...
 

slowfinger

International Debutant
Err.... Lee should be in team of course, playing without Lee is like playing without Lee tbh.
He's always good just form atm he is one fast bowler who can bowl accurate tbh, the best at it is him and when hes on fire he is unstoppable. Why you would EVER play without him is insane unless hes out of form.
 

slowfinger

International Debutant
How was Williams bad?.

He was a pretty good back-up ODI bowler. Shown by his excellent 2003/04 performances in the TVS Cup & VB series 2004.

He probably wouldn't have been that much as a test match bowler. But he did bowl on some road vs IND & SRI. ATM i'd say Willians of the late 03 early 04 period, is at least on par Hilfenhaus...
Basically he was nothing special?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
How was Williams bad?.

He was a pretty good back-up ODI bowler. Shown by his excellent 2003/04 performances in the TVS Cup & VB series 2004.
I've said my piece on Williams before now. Very fortunate to bowl in the dew against NZ in the TVS Cup, against Zimbabwe in the VB Series and against an India that was finally running-out of steam in said same tourno.

Had he had a longer ODI career I don't doubt he'd have conceded 4.7-4.8-an-over or so at an average of over 30. He just wasn't very good.
 

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