Flintoff having knee surgery...

[rivera213]

remember his comment to Yuvraj in the T20 world cup? "I'm going to smash your f*cking face in" that's pretty much as chavish as you can get, what a tw*t.

Yeah but he said it to Yuvraj Singh who is 1 of the biggest pricks in cricket so it doesn't count.

 

[JimmyGS]

Yeah but he said it to Yuvraj Singh who is 1 of the biggest pricks in cricket so it doesn't count.

Awta.

 

[Top_Cat]

Plus, stop spamming the forums. A thread only needs to be created when he is not going through some sort of ankle or knee explosion.

haha, new thread;

"Freddie Flintoff uninjured for entire calendar year - discuss"

 

[gvenkat]

The whole "England win more games without Flintoff" theory is flawed beyond belief. Let's look what we have won without him in the last couple of years:

New Zealand (X2)
West Indies

And what have we lost with him?

South Africa
West indies
India

We also lost to India & Sri Lanka without him.

No disrespect to NZ/WI, but basically we have won the series you'd expect us to win and lost the series you'd expect us to lose, except for the last series away to WI, which Flintoff obviously missed half of. if you want to try and make any of that above about Flintoff being there or not then you are on a different planet.

Mate, Flintoff is over-rated in Tests let's get that clear. He is an effective bowler in ODi's but in Tests a guy with 2 5fer's is no good.. England would actually be better off without him in the Tests..they might play swann and monty with another extra batsman in place of this fella...

 

[Jono]

So it seem CW opinion goes like this...

2003-04 - Freddy is overrated
2005-06 - Freddy is awesome, people who said he was overrated admitted they were wrong.
2006-07 onwards - Freddy is overrated again

No doubt he's far from a great, and only had a few years of consistency, but surely people are smart enough to see that injuries had a part (at least with the ball)?

With the bat, I just think he didn't apply himself as much as he should have, and his career stats will show that.

 

[bagapath]

as an all-rounder flintoff is world class. he falls short only when you compare him with all-time greats like miller, imran, botham and kapil. his lack of five-fers, as gvenkat said, is my reasoning too in ranking him below them. apart from that, he does bowl his heart out, chips in with valuable wickets, scores quick runs and takes fantastic catches. you cant ask for more than that from a cricketer. IPL can go climb a tree. hope he recovers in time for the ashes.

 

[Furball]

Anyway, as I said, England seem to win more games without him.

The stat which shows that since the Ashes England have been a more successful side without Flintoff than with him is massively flawed, since Flintoff has tended to miss series against weaker opposition and played in series against the stronger sides.

 

[Furball]

He shouldn't have gone to the IPL. The ECB really needs to grow a pair of balls and govern the players.

Flintoff has a history of injuries, was injured in the recent series against the West Indies yet went to the IPL a matter of 2 months before the most important series for an English player having only recently come back.

Being out for "only" 3-5 weeks in itself doesn't sound too bad but he will hardly be at full fitness and form come the first test match. Considering he is our most important player, our best bowler and a pair of safe hands it was an irresponsible move from both him and especially the ECB.

What is the point of having central contracts?

Would it have been more acceptable had he been injured bowling for Lancashire this week in the County Championship?

 

[four_or_six]

So it seem CW opinion goes like this...

2003-04 - Freddy is overrated
2005-06 - Freddy is awesome, people who said he was overrated admitted they were wrong.
2006-07 onwards - Freddy is overrated again

No doubt he's far from a great, and only had a few years of consistency, but surely people are smart enough to see that injuries had a part (at least with the ball)?

With the bat, I just think he didn't apply himself as much as he should have, and his career stats will show that.

I don't think people generally put enough emphasis on injuries when looking at people's careers. Great players are also pretty much those who have had few injuries. And very very often, form dips with good or great players co-incide with injury problems.

 

[oitoitoi]

Yeah but he said it to Yuvraj Singh who is 1 of the biggest pricks in cricket so it doesn't count.

I seriously doubt Yuvraj is the only one he's made such comments to, it's just that others are probably too intimidated to do anything. Never before in English circket has a player been built up in the media quite like Flintoff, people have this ridiculous perception that he's a saint who just enjoys a drink, when really he's just a chav who enjoys a drink. Steve Waugh Glenn Mcgrath may have been complete and utter b*stards on the field but they more than made up for it with their actions off them.

 

[superkingdave]

I'd imagine Flintoff will be quite pissed off with all the ECB guys coming out saying its nothing to do with the IPL and would have happened anyway. Giving Chennai perfect excuse not to pay him for the rest of his stint

 

[oitoitoi]

I'd imagine Flintoff will be quite pissed off with all the ECB guys coming out saying its nothing to do with the IPL and would have happened anyway. Giving Chennai perfect excuse not to pay him for the rest of his stint

He is getting paid for the rest of his stint, shocking if you ask me, if it was my team he'd be out on his arse.

 

[Richard]

It may've happened anyway, but it may not have.

Nah. It would have happened anyway. There is apparently no doubt about this. So we should be damn grateful it's happened now rather than in a couple of months' time.

 

[Richard]

So it seem CW opinion goes like this...

2003-04 - Freddy is overrated
2005-06 - Freddy is awesome, people who said he was overrated admitted they were wrong.
2006-07 onwards - Freddy is overrated again

No doubt he's far from a great, and only had a few years of consistency, but surely people are smart enough to see that injuries had a part (at least with the ball)?

Yeah, it's really rather tiresome. You and me are two of the relatively few people who've been around long enough to observe the whole tedious saga. Why people can't just be less impulsive I don't know.

With the bat, I just think he didn't apply himself as much as he should have, and his career stats will show that.

I don't agree with that TBH. I think he's batted as well as he could've done, he just isn't as good a batsman as some liked to think, for pretty much his entire career.

 

[Richard]

Mate, Flintoff is over-rated in Tests let's get that clear. He is an effective bowler in ODi's but in Tests a guy with 2 5fer's is no good.. England would actually be better off without him in the Tests..they might play swann and monty with another extra batsman in place of this fella...

Flintoff as a Test bowler certainly isn't "no good", though it's true he's never quite realised what might be hoped of him... yet.

As for having Swann and MSP in the team regularly in Tests... One spinner is usually surplus to requirements in England, never mind two.

 

[Richard]

I enjoy Flintoff getting injured, because I believe he's an overrated chav, remember his comment to Yuvraj in the T20 world cup? "I'm going to smash your f*cking face in" that's pretty much as chavish as you can get, what a tw*t. Also Allan Donald within a day of working with him as England bowling coach identified the problem in his action that keeps getting his ankle injured, instead of putting the work in to alter his action he responded "I'm too old to change", and promptly got injured again. You listen what Allan Donald tells you boy.

Anyway, as I said, England seem to win more games without him.

Martyn has already pointed-out how the "England win more games without him" thing is utterly misrepresentative; as for the bowling action, well, Allan Donald in 2007 was far from the first to identify this. In fact it was first spotted back in 2001/02 (I forget who was responsible - might've been Bob Cottam) and our very own Kev Goughy also pointed it out in mid-2006. Nor has Flintoff been the only one responsible for it not being changed - apparently in 2001/02 the decision to ignore the advice was made by someone else. Whether it'd have borne much fruit had Flintoff tried to change it after Donald spoke to him is a moot point - he was, indeed, 29 years old by then. No untruth about that.

Oh, and avoiding the filter isn't a good idea BTW. Not that bastard is filtered, so no need to try there.

 

[GIMH]

Would it have been more acceptable had he been injured bowling for Lancashire this week in the County Championship?

Yeah, fair point, though he would have played less games he might well have bowled more overs seeing as he would have probably played an FC and OD game

I seriously doubt Yuvraj is the only one he's made such comments to, it's just that others are probably too intimidated to do anything. Never before in English circket has a player been built up in the media quite like Flintoff, people have this ridiculous perception that he's a saint who just enjoys a drink, when really he's just a chav who enjoys a drink. Steve Waugh Glenn Mcgrath may have been complete and utter b*stards on the field but they more than made up for it with their actions off them.

Haha, so go on, what has Flintoff done off the pitch? Got drunk, pedalo etc, but how does any of this make him a chav? There is absolutely nothing that points towards him being a **** off the field, you really defeat your own argument when you defend Waugh & McGrath being bastards on the pitch given that your argument is based around one thing he said to Yuvraj and things that he might have said to others! Give it a rest, you're boring me now

 

[rivera213]

Would it have been more acceptable had he been injured bowling for Lancashire this week in the County Championship?

No, but I doubt he would've played much in the begin of the season had he not been in the IPL since he's just coming off an injury and he isn't getting paid for his Lancashire duty.

The whole reasoning for central contracts when they first came about was that the ECB could control how much cricket their "top" players play.

It's the tail wagging the dog Flintoff going to the IPL.

 

[Richard]

Does anyone honestly believe the ECB has the slightest right to tell a player he is not allowed to go and play in the IPL if he's offered a collossal pay-packet?

Anyone whose bosses tell them to do that has 100% right to tell 'em to get stuffed. England cricket needs Andrew Flintoff far more than he needs the ECB's contracts.

Some people forget that cricketers are actually humans as well and have every right to put their own earnings ahead of the team. There are some utterly ridiculous expectations flying around, as Jacob Oram mentioned:

Originally Posted by Jacob Oram
The pride that goes into representing your country goes without saying. But the reality is in today's game, you get paid when you're playing, and while that might be a bit of a taboo subject - and people want to hear it's all about wearing your national colours - it has to be understood that this is our career, and we also have mortgages, bills and families to feed.

 

[Jono]

I don't agree with that TBH. I think he's batted as well as he could've done, he just isn't as good a batsman as some liked to think, for pretty much his entire career.

Hmmm, one can argue that your viewpoint is just the same as mine.

Isn't being unable to apply yourself (getting caught in the deep in small chases, chasing wide ones when your team needs you to grind and dig deep) basically saying you're not as good a batsman as you would be if you were able to do that? Temperament and clever batting makes the batsman just like technique and skill does.