Flintoff having knee surgery...

[Burgey]

How so? You can't force someone to sign a new contract.

(Can you?)

The contract says "Pursuant to this contract you will be paid $X".

 

[Richard]

No professional sportsman should pick money over their country

Idealistic attitude. To expect this to be reality is simply folly.

Any sportsman has every right to pick whichever option they choose - it's their life.

 

[Richard]

He could refuse if he wants but then the ECB would be within their right to say "**** off Andrew, you aren't playing for England again".

Then we'd see how much he cares about playing for England.

What a great idea - sacrifice one of your biggest assets. Any ECB selector who tells Andrew Flintoff to bugger off needs sacking on the spot.

He'd have had to continue that level of excellence til 2010 for him to even be considered up there with Both.

I realise that - the point is, people were expecting (probably, in highsight, ludicrously so) that to happen.

Even though he was awesome in that series and I was as big a fan of his as anyone else, I knew Botham was better and never thought nor said anything to the contrary.

Some people are more implusive than others. Just because you aren't doesn't mean everyone isn't.

I did hope he'd continue that form into the return Ashes. The captaincy wasn't a good move (eerily similar to Botham's time as captain) and that must've affected his form.

Not sure I agree about the captaincy, think what happened in 2006/07 would've happened captain or not captain. He batted moreorless how he's always batted that series and bowled little less well (and the only times he was truly down was due to his ankle, which again, would've happened captain or not).

Totally different to Botham who went from being utterly superlative (41 with bat and 18 with ball when not captain between '77 and '81) to really quite diabolical (teens with bat and late-30s with ball) when made captain. Though of course he's always been adament that said captaincy had no effect, and in truth we'll never know.

 

[wpdavid]

Totally different to Botham who went from being utterly superlative (41 with bat and 18 with ball when not captain between '77 and '81) to really quite diabolical (teens with bat and late-30s with ball) when made captain. Though of course he's always been adamant that said captaincy had no effect, and in truth we'll never know.

Maybe it was affecting him by the first two Ashes tests in 1981. Prior to that, the standard of opponents must have had way more to do with it imo.

 

[Richard]

Even though West Indies of 1980 and 1981 were clearly a class apart (and losing his lifelong hero Kenny Barrington mid-tour in the latter could hardly have helped either), I've alwyas found it near-inconceivable that he could have had his performance denigrated so badly purely because of the standard of opposition.

I'd guess both had something to do with it TBH.

 

[Furball]

No professional sportsman should pick money over their country, especially when the central contract is nearer to half a million for Flintoff not the measly £100k you think it is (exact figures for 2009 haven't been announced but the salary in 2006 was up to £400,000 so add inflation and lack of recession for sportsmen and you're looking at £500,000+ for Flintoof, Pietersen etc).

Nice article from Nasser: Nasser Hussain - ECB wimps have to end contract farce | Mail Online

I doubt that's anywhere near true. I'm almost certain that the elite England players get 6 figure sums, but there's not a chance in hell that Flintoff and Pietersen get anywhere near £500k a year playing for England. They wouldn't have been pushing to play IPL if that was the case.

 

[four_or_six]

I doubt that's anywhere near true. I'm almost certain that the elite England players get 6 figure sums, but there's not a chance in hell that Flintoff and Pietersen get anywhere near £500k a year playing for England. They wouldn't have been pushing to play IPL if that was the case.

I'm sure that's right, over £400000, isn't it, for the top contracts?

 

[Furball]

I'm sure that's right, over £400000, isn't it, for the top contracts?

I'm sure it's nowhere near that, but I can't find anything on google to prove it either way.

 

[four_or_six]

I'm sure it's nowhere near that, but I can't find anything on google to prove it either way.

This article from 2007 says:

The top earners will pick up around £300,000 for their efforts and are those who will be playing a vital role in both Test and one day cricket - the Freddie Flintoffs, Paul Collingwoods and Kevin Pietersens of this world.

Below them are the players who are yet to prove themselves indispensable - the Andersons, Alastair Cooks and Ian Bells of the side, collecting close to £225,000.

On the bottom rung will be the players who are just making their way into the national side like Matt Prior, who could expect a £120,000 windfall.

Not sure how reliable a source, but would have thought it would be in the right ball-park.

 

[Furball]

This article from 2007 says:



Not sure how reliable a source, but would have thought it would be in the right ball-park.

Fair enough, I'm sure I've read somewhere that it's not as much as that, but like I said, I can't remember whether it was online or in a magazine, and if it was online, I can't find it.

 

[rivera213]

Collingwood earned £444,000 last year so what do you think Flintoff and Pietersen earned?

 

[rivera213]

What a great idea - sacrifice one of your biggest assets. Any ECB selector who tells Andrew Flintoff to bugger off needs sacking on the spot.

If he picks money over his country then I would.

**** him, he isn't exactly a great player and his career is taking a severe downward spiral.

I don't know of any business in the world who would be dictated to by their workers, regardless of how good at their job they are.

Not sure I agree about the captaincy, think what happened in 2006/07 would've happened captain or not captain. He batted moreorless how he's always batted that series and bowled little less well (and the only times he was truly down was due to his ankle, which again, would've happened captain or not).

You can't make that assumption. Absolutely no-one predicted a 5-0 thumping and Flintoff to play as crap as he did. His batting is always an extra for me, he is very much a bowling allrounder.

Totally different to Botham who went from being utterly superlative (41 with bat and 18 with ball when not captain between '77 and '81) to really quite diabolical (teens with bat and late-30s with ball) when made captain. Though of course he's always been adament that said captaincy had no effect, and in truth we'll never know.

I think Botham is kidding himself (or knows but isn't admitting it publicly). I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't have been as great during '77 and '81 had he been made captain during that period (which obviously wouldn't have happened with Brearley as Captain).

That little extra responsibility affects a player one way or the other. For Botham to not be affected in any way would be against the norm.

 

[Richard]

If he picks money over his country then I would.

**** him, he isn't exactly a great player and his career is taking a severe downward spiral.

I don't know of any business in the world who would be dictated to by their workers, regardless of how good at their job they are.

In no small part because mostly workers need their company more than their company needs one worker... but cricket doesn't work like that, not with players as good as Andrew Flintoff (and truly outstanding player he may not be, but he's damn good and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise). A cricket team is no more than what its players make it, and no cricket team can ever afford to sacrifice any massive asset. So if they want to put said team second once every now and then, you just have to live with it. Fortunately, most players don't, but if they do, it's their right to do so.

You can't make that assumption. Absolutely no-one predicted a 5-0 thumping and Flintoff to play as crap as he did. His batting is always an extra for me, he is very much a bowling allrounder.

Well, Glenn McGrath did predict it... but anyway, just because no-one thought England were going to be that bad, that they were had precious little to do with Flintoff's captaincy - and in any case, even if it did it's irrelevant to whether captaincy affected Flintoff's form. As I say, Flintoff batted no worse that series than he has in any number of other series' against good bowling attacks, and I honestly don't see how anyone can claim his bowling was vastly inferior to what it normally has been for the last 5 years, and certainly to what it has been for the last year since his return from injury.

I think Botham is kidding himself (or knows but isn't admitting it publicly). I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't have been as great during '77 and '81 had he been made captain during that period (which obviously wouldn't have happened with Brearley as Captain).

That little extra responsibility affects a player one way or the other. For Botham to not be affected in any way would be against the norm.

As I say - in truth we'll never know. What's most likely is that he'd have done poorly but not quite so poorly had someone else been given the captaincy in 1980.

 

[Furball]

Collingwood earned £444,000 last year so what do you think Flintoff and Pietersen earned?

Do you have a source for this, or are you just plucking numbers out of thin air?

 

[oitoitoi]

Do you have a source for this, or are you just plucking numbers out of thin air?

No I remember a times article with that figure, he was one of the only players to be centrally contracted for all 3 forms of the game, plus he was one day captain at the time I think. England's cricketers are actually the highest paid in the world by some distance. Pretty ridiculous considering their results. Contrary to popular belief the Indian and Pakistani players aren't actually paid that much by their boards, they make their cash through endorsements, as do the Aussies to an extent (Brett Lee was everywhere in India for a while, I remember seeing Jason Gillespie on the TV continuously about 5 years ago too).

They have to scrap central contracts or totally rewrite them. They're completely pointless with the players having this much power, Flintoff and Pietersen are having their cake and eating it too at the expense of English Cricket.