England Performance Squad

[Goughy]

Edwards is also far quicker than Saj. If Saj was consistently as quick as Edwards then he may be worth investing a bit of time in him but he isnt and he is a bad bowler.

 

[thierry henry]

In the 2006/07 CB series Mahmood bowled over 150kph with the new ball on several occasions. He was express.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Edwards looked better than his figures because he made Pietersen hop about at the crease, but he never caused genuine problems.

Clearly you did not watch the match in Barbados. Because he had about 3 catches dropped in the first innings and caused quite a few problems on an excellent batting surface.

And unsettling a top class batsman is precisely causing a genuine problem.

 

[tooextracool]

Edwards is an average bowler, and its unlikely he will ever be anything else. His overall record is poor, however, with Edwards its important to consider that he does bring an X-factor to the side that is very important and makes him very unique. When Edwards is good, he is damn near unplayable and we all know that he has spells where has made made some of the best batters in the world look clueless and hop around. However, these spells are more or less balanced out by spells of mediocrity where he bowls with little direction (which is typically the case with Slingers) and/or brain power. But the important point is that he, like Malinga from SL, offers something different to the rest of the side and this is why Lara was always a huge advocate for having him in the side while he was captain..

Getting back to Mahmood, there is no point comparing him to Edwards because Edwards regularly bowls at or above 90mph. Mahmood, has only displayed this ability when the stars are aligned in this favor and we all know that by and large he was mid-high 80s. This isnt going to trouble anyone when there is little direction involved. If Mahmood was a Shaun Tait, I would say bring him in the side. But, when we have Harmison, Flintoff and Anderson who are all just as quick and quite a bit more skillful this seems rather pointless.

 

[tooextracool]

In the 2006/07 CB series Mahmood bowled over 150kph with the new ball on several occasions. He was express.

When has Saj ever bowled a hostile spell that has had opposing batsmen jump around or genuinely hurried? He is quick, but express is an overstatement.

 

[tooextracool]

Bob Willis perhaps puts it better than me :

"Still, it is a blow for the selectors whose hunt for an alternative pace option to Steve Harmison goes on. Aside from Jones, Sajid Mahmood is just about the only other English-qualified bowler on the county circuit with any genuine pace.

That's why they have to look at him again. No-one covered themselves with any glory for the Lions over the winter but reports suggest that Mahmood was the best of that crop. (Remember Scaly stats may at times be mis-leading!)

If he can just get his wrist action sorted out he could be a threat this summer because he has a very whippy, potentially very good bowling action."

Look if you told me that we need Saj Mahmood because hes capable of bowling conventional outswingers and reverse inswingers at a lively pace (all of which is true) I would somewhat understand your argument. However saying that he should be picked based on the fact that he bowls with some pace defies logic IMO. I agree with Goughy on this one, Saj isnt anywhere near as fast as Lee or Akthar, he isnt even as quick as Steyn, Bond, Edwards or Malinga. So IMO if you are going to pick someone based on 1 attribute, then he might as well be amongst the best in the world at it, and the fact is that he isnt.

 

[tooextracool]

I have been a fan and supporter of Harmison for a while, but he has never regained the pace that terrified the opposition. I always want his selection in the hope something may click, but it rarely does, therefore I think Saj would be consistently quicker.

Harmison tbh has never really bowled at 90mph consistently. Hes done it perhaps for a few balls in a spell, and hes definetly done it far more often at home than abroad. I dont think its a question of Harmison regaining his pace, I think he just doesnt have the attributes to succeed away from home. His record at home is fairly decent 128 @ 28 with SR 51. However, with the exception of 1 series abroad, hes more or less been fairly ordinary 93@37 with SR of 70 (and thats including 9 in Bdesh @ 8.78).
What might be ideal for Harmison is for him to play some full seasons in SA or Australia to develop some of the skills that are required to succeed away from home. Hes only 30 years old and a year or so out of the side would really allow him to develop as a bowler IMO.

 

[Woodster]

Look if you told me that we need Saj Mahmood because hes capable of bowling conventional outswingers and reverse inswingers at a lively pace (all of which is true) I would somewhat understand your argument. However saying that he should be picked based on the fact that he bowls with some pace defies logic IMO. I agree with Goughy on this one, Saj isnt anywhere near as fast as Lee or Akthar, he isnt even as quick as Steyn, Bond, Edwards or Malinga. So IMO if you are going to pick someone based on 1 attribute, then he might as well be amongst the best in the world at it, and the fact is that he isnt.

Please read several earlier posts indicating more than pace is needed to be a success at the highest level. This point has been made by myself and others on a number occasions within this thread!

 

[Woodster]

Harmison tbh has never really bowled at 90mph consistently. Hes done it perhaps for a few balls in a spell, and hes definetly done it far more often at home than abroad. I dont think its a question of Harmison regaining his pace, I think he just doesnt have the attributes to succeed away from home. His record at home is fairly decent 128 @ 28 with SR 51. However, with the exception of 1 series abroad, hes more or less been fairly ordinary 93@37 with SR of 70 (and thats including 9 in Bdesh @ 8.78).
What might be ideal for Harmison is for him to play some full seasons in SA or Australia to develop some of the skills that are required to succeed away from home. Hes only 30 years old and a year or so out of the side would really allow him to develop as a bowler IMO.

Harmison is generally selected for his pace and bounce, he is of little use to the England side bowling at around 83mph, as there are a number of other bowlers that offer much more control and movement around this mark.

 

[Goughy]

Harmison is generally selected for his pace and bounce, he is of little use to the England side bowling at around 83mph, as there are a number of other bowlers that offer much more control and movement around this mark.

Harmison has the main attribute of bounce and length. This is the primary weapon. The faster he bowls the more dangerous this weapon becomes. Harmison at 92 mph>>>>>>>Harmison at 82 mph.

The speed makes his primary weapons (bounce and length) more dangerous. The pace is a multiplier and complimentary skill.

Saj doesnt have a primary weapon. The pace is not complimentary, it is only.

 

[Woodster]

Harmison has the main attribute of bounce and length. This is the primary weapon. The faster he bowls the more dangerous this weapon becomes. Harmison at 92 mph>>>>>>>Harmison at 82 mph.

The speed makes his primary weapons (bounce and length) more dangerous. The pace is a multiplier and complimentary skill.

Saj doesnt have a primary weapon. The pace is not complimentary, it is only.

Without wanting to prolong this particular debate any further than necessary, it is clear you are not alone Goughy in not holding a very high opinion of Saj Mahmood, I respect that, that is your entitlement. I do think he has something to offer but most now demonstrate this with more consistent performances. Yes, he has got pace and very good pace, but also he does get movement and is prone to getting the old ball to reverse (not necessarily something I've seen first-hand, but good judges suggest this is true).

I can't see how this man can be ruled out of any international selection just yet. If at the end of this season he is still yet to produce the goods consistently, then possibly he may have missed the boat. Now is the time for Saj, we hear all these promises regarding his improved accuracy, and we are crying out for a quick, accurate bowler to rough batsmen up in the England side, alongside Freddie.

Few of you may agree, I'm sure the majority don't, but let's judge him on this season, not on the bowler he was a few years back.

 

[Richard]

I'm almost willing to say "I'll eat my computer if Saj actually does genuinely well with the ball this season".

Almost. Because I know county batsmen are not reliable things to place your wellbeing on.

 

[tooextracool]

Yes, he has got pace and very good pace, but also he does get movement and is prone to getting the old ball to reverse (not necessarily something I've seen first-hand, but good judges suggest this is true).

You are right about the movement, I do not agree with the idea that Saj only has one attribute that is pace. We have seen on many occasions that he is capable of bowling outswingers with the new ball and reverse inswingers with the old. He was devastating on the A tour to India several years ago (which is better known for Pietersen's pre-international success). I also do not subscribe to the idea that he is one of the worst bowlers to play for England or that he does not have any potential. No one should honestly say that he has no chance of playing for England again.

Saj is a far better bowler than Liam Plunkett and IMO has a lot of potential, but he needs to translate that to performance at the domestic level first before he can get another go at the international level. 87-88 mph isnt going to trouble top players when its not well directed, and it didnt the last time he played. Has he improved since then? If so what exactly has he improved? Saj himself claims that his accuracy is a work in progress, and something he hopes to improve this season, so for me its a no brainer IMO. I would happily take Ali, Davies, Jones (if fit) ahead of him at this point.

 

[superkingdave]

Yeah, he might possibly get better in the future, but given he's not shown anything to say he is yet, he shouldn't be in the performance squad. If he has a good year this year (taking wickets at 33 or whatever is not a good year) you might consider him for it.

 

[Goughy]

This good year Saj had last season.

I dont know the answer to this so, how many bowlers (then seperate for English bowlers) took 20+ FC wickets at a lower average than him last year?

 

[Pup Clarke]

we are crying out for a quick, accurate bowler to rough batsmen up in the England side, alongside Freddie.

But Broad, Anderson and even Harmison on good days can 'rough batsman up', they can all bowl bouncers...

 

[GIMH]

Goughy, the following bowlers took more wickets at a lower average than Saj last season

Division one:

Tomlinson
Rashid
Harmison
Shreck
Joseph
Thorp
McLaren
Willoughby
Pattinson
Bresnan
Tahir
Chapple
Hoggard
Mascarenhas
Lewry
Davies
Arafat

Division two:

Murtagh
Ali
Wagg
Langeveldt
va der Wath
Jones
Woakes
Carter
Henderson
Kaneria
Masters
Croft
ten Doeschate
Kirby
Lewis

 

[Uppercut]

This good year Saj had last season.

I dont know the answer to this so, how many bowlers (then seperate for English bowlers) took 20+ FC wickets at a lower average than him last year?

In order of descending average, of bowlers in the first division alone:

Martin-Jenkins
Rashid
Ealham
Lewry
Arafat
Jones
Shreck
Bresnan
Collymore
Willoughby
Cork
Thomas
Swann
Joseph
Trego
Tomlinson
Hoggard
Pattinson
Mascarenhas
McLaren
Harmison
Amjad
Chapple
Thorp
Azhar Mahmood (the selectors may have gotten these guys mixed up- this one had 21 wickets @ 19)
Adams
Tahir
Davies- top of the pile with 39 wickets at the ridiculous average of 15.

28, out of nine counties.


Can someone else let me know which of these are elligible for England?

 

[Pup Clarke]

In order of descending average, of bowlers in the first division alone:

Martin-JenkinsRashid
Ealham
Lewry
Arafat
Jones
Shreck
Bresnan
Collymore
Willoughby
Cork
Thomas
Swann
JosephTrego
Tomlinson
Hoggard
Pattinson
Mascarenhas
McLaren (eligible in 2 years)
Harmison
Amjad
Chapple
Thorp ( soon possibly, won't get selected)
Azhar Mahmood (the selectors may have gotten these guys mixed up- this one had 21 wickets @ 19)
Adams
Tahir
Davies- top of the pile with 39 wickets at the ridiculous average of 15.



Can someone else let me know which of these are elligible for England?

Bolded are eligible

 

[BoyBrumby]

Should re-name the thread "bag Sajid Mahmood".

He's been picked on a gut feeling similar to the one that saw Simon Jones, Stephen Harmison, Liam Plunkett & Amjad Khan called up when other players have better records. He's quick(ish), moves the new and old ball in the air & can get bounce too. The problem is that he struggles to land the ball on the cut strip at times.

It's probably wishful thinking he's in the squad, but it's a squad of 25 players; it's not like he's in the starting Ashes XI.

Of the seamers GIMH listed from Div One how many are honestly better chances for tests? Davies? Maybe Joseph at a stretch? It's (at best) a questionable pick, but one can see the thinking behind it at least. Obviously someone thinks he can have consistency coached into him; I don't think I agree, really but equally I don't think the pick was woeful enough to justify 40-odd posts about how dire he is either.