Choose the last player for Post WW 2 XI

[Ikki]

with sobers in this team i think everyone has got the confidence to hand over the fifth bowler's duties to him and go for an extra batsman. also, lillee coming in (in place of murali) means there is enough pace bowling in the team already.

Then why didn't they pick Kallis? Putting all arguments aside, is his bowling really that different from Sobers'?

 

[zaremba]

Then why didn't they pick Kallis? Putting all arguments aside, is his bowling really that different from Sobers'?

Sobers' bowling has the virtue of versatility. We have a team with 3 great fast bowlers and one great spinner already. Who would add more value to that line-up? Well if there's swing in the air or movement in the pitch I'd be more or less equally happy with either Sobers or Kallis in addition Lillee, Hadlee and Marshall (although Sobers maybe has the edge for me as he offers a bit more variation as a left-armer). But if there is, or is likely to be, spin in the pitch you'd obviously rather have Sobers. I'm not saying he's good enough to be the No.1 spinner in the team, but as Tim May showed you don't need to be a great spinner to form a good spin bowling partnership with Shane Warne.

 

[Ikki]

Sobers' bowling has the virtue of versatility. We have a team with 3 great fast bowlers and one great spinner already. Who would add more value to that line-up? Well if there's swing in the air or movement in the pitch I'd be more or less equally happy with either Sobers or Kallis in addition Lillee, Hadlee and Marshall (although Sobers maybe has the edge for me as he offers a bit more variation as a left-armer). But if there is, or is likely to be, spin in the pitch you'd obviously rather have Sobers. I'm not saying he's good enough to be the No.1 spinner in the team, but as Tim May showed you don't need to be a great spinner to form a good spin bowling partnership with Shane Warne.

Yeah, that reason doesn't cut it for me. But makes a tiny bit more sense.

 

[zaremba]

Out of interest, does Kallis make your team Ikki?

 

[Ikki]

Out of interest, does Kallis make your team Ikki?

He's not there to be chosen for, but if it was him or Lara I'd vote for him...if it was about extra bowling.

In these kinds of sides I just don't think Kallis or Sobers should ever get the ball when there are these kinds of bowlers. It's simply a waste or a throw-the-kitchen-sink move. Might as well let Tendulkar bowl spin.

I picked Miller because he will not let up the quality in bowling while giving the others a rest and has the ability to win the game with it too, yet also has the ability to save the match lower down in the order too. I'd probably place him above Sobers at his original position @ 5 where he averages in the 40s I think, and put Sobers where he is more renown @ 6 also giving the line-up more stability. If anything, a tail that bats pretty well until 11th doesn't need a Lara.

So something akin to:

1. Sir Len Hutton
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Sir Viv Richards
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Keith Miller
6. Sir Gary Sobers
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Sir Richard Hadlee
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Dennis Lillee

 

[zaremba]

He's not there to be chosen for, but if it was him or Lara I'd vote for him...if it was about extra bowling.

You imply that it's not about extra bowling yet you pick Miller at number 5?

I'm not sure it's really fair to compare Tendulkar's bowling with Sobers', although I'm not sure how seriously you made the comparison.

Anyhow I assure you I'm not spoiling for another fight, let alone about the respective merits of Sobers and Kallis and Miller; I can see the reasons for your selection of Miller and it's your prerogative.

 

[Ikki]

You imply that it's not about extra bowling yet you pick Miller at number 5?

To be frank, you could take a specialist batsman or bowler for the left over position and make a logical argument why this team would be better with them. I picked the player who averages 40+ with the bat in this position and 22-23 with the ball. Effectively the best of both worlds which would suit both arguments.

I'm not sure it's really fair to compare Tendulkar's bowling with Sobers', although I'm not sure how seriously you made the comparison.

It's not about a comparison between Tendulkar's bowling and Sobers'. But theirs and the specialist bowlers in their team. I think bowling either is a waste, but what more of a waste to make a decision based on either's bowling for the composition of a team. I see bowling Sobers as a waste in a team that has Warne, Hadlee, Lillee and Marshall. That it would be a less of a waste to bowl him than Tendulkar doesn't sway me enough to put much weight on that difference.

Anyhow I assure you I'm not spoiling for another fight, let alone about the respective merits of Sobers and Kallis and Miller; I can see the reasons for your selection of Miller and it's your prerogative.

LOL, I post a lot out of boredom. Not fights. I welcome questions; I am comfortable enough in my opinions to explain or elaborate on them.

 

[zaremba]

Well mate it's your call: it's your hypothetical team not mine.

For me, four front-line quicks plus Warne is overkill and therefore, to use your word, wasteful. In particular, picking Miller (batting average 37) at number 5 simply because he can bowl is wasteful, given the quality of batsmen you're leaving out to make room for him (Lara, G Chappell, G Pollock, Ponting). I suspect that, given your acknowledgement that your selection of Miller was a choice made with your heart rather than your head, you may actually intellectually agree with this.

 

[Ikki]

Well mate it's your call: it's your hypothetical team not mine.

For me, four front-line quicks plus Warne is overkill and therefore, to use your word, wasteful. In particular, picking Miller (batting average 37) at number 5 simply because he can bowl is wasteful, given the quality of batsmen you're leaving out to make room for him (Lara, G Chappell, G Pollock, Ponting). I suspect that, given your acknowledgement that your selection of Miller was a choice made with your heart rather than your head, you may actually intellectually agree with this.

My heart tells me 4 bowlers is enough, but I am not going to give Sobers a bowl in any case, so I can see the reason for an all-rounder. I think Lara's extra batting will be more helpful than Miller's extra bowling but to be honest when I weigh everything in (not just bowling and battlng) I'd want Miller in anyway. He is one of my favourite players too so I guess it's also hard for me to separate my bias . I guess I mean to say it's not completely like I am forgoing all logic here.

P.S. Miller's batting average @ 5 was 42. And at his prime/peak (first half of his career) he was averaging 64.

 

[zaremba]

P.S. Miller's batting average @ 5 was 42. And at his prime/peak (first half of his career) he was averaging 64.

Ah, but this imaginary Test is starting on a Thursday, and in matches which began on Thursdays Miller's batting average dropped by 12.3 points.

I wonder what Lara's batting average was during the peak of his career. And from the God-awful Sobers v Kallis thread I seem to remember that Sobers' bowling average over his peak period was 27 - which isn't such as to suggest that throwing him the ball would be wasteful.

 

[fredfertang]

I don't think there'd be any point in having Miller and Sobers in the same side unless you introduced prohibition and closed all the race tracks.

 

[Ikki]

Ah, but this imaginary Test is starting on a Thursday, and in matches which began on Thursdays Miller's batting average dropped by 12.3 points.

I wonder what Lara's batting average was during the peak of his career. And from the God-awful Sobers v Kallis thread I seem to remember that Sobers' bowling average over his peak period was 27 - which isn't such as to suggest that throwing him the ball would be wasteful.

, It's not even like that and you know it. Miller was apparently chopped and changed when Bradman retired. As good as he was, batting at 3/4 was an ask. Lower down the order he was better. By halfway point of his career, Miller was averaging 45 with the bat (all positions included) and 22 with the ball. Of course, Miller was already an injured specimen when he started Test cricket, pretty much, so by half way it'd be natural he'd started his decline - still with very good figures anyway.

I mean, how much different is this than suggesting Garry Sobers was a decent spinner on his day and in 4-5 year period he was a decent seamer?

 

[Ikki]

I don't think there'd be any point in having Miller and Sobers in the same side unless you introduced prohibition and closed all the race tracks.

Why? Sobers is probably the greatest ever #6 and one of the best batsmen of all time. In a team like this, you pick him for batting and at best a part-timer. Miller gets there as an all-rounder.

 

[zaremba]

Why? Sobers is probably the greatest ever #6 and one of the best batsmen of all time. In a team like this, you pick him for batting and at best a part-timer. Miller gets there as an all-rounder.

Whoosh!

 

[Slifer]

Yeah and I'd pick Miller purely as a bowler, no way he'd get ne where near a top 5 in ne all time team

 

[Ikki]

Whoosh!

Oops...that's the problem with skim-reading.

 

[bagapath]

Then why didn't they pick Kallis? Putting all arguments aside, is his bowling really that different from Sobers'?

his batting is.

 

[archie mac]

Dont know if I would agree with that myself, AM. I sometimes think Miller's batting is a little over-stated. And I dont think he was as good an AR as Imran or Sobers (or perhaps even Kallis and Botham). But I have already voted Lara anyway, primarily for the reasons mentioned by Bagapath, and also summarised by Zaremba thus:

Not sure if you have read much about Miller? But imo if he had never bowled he would have been considered one of Auustralia's great batsman

 

[Ikki]

his batting is.

Their batting had little to do with the decision.

 

[bagapath]

Their batting had little to do with the decision.

yeah it was. sobers got into this team primarily as a batsman through the middle order poll.