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Choose the last player for Post WW 2 XI

Choose the last player for Post WW2 Dream XI


  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
yeah it was. sobers got into this team primarily as a batsman through the middle order poll.
LOL, I am not talking about them as middle-order batsmen. Essentially, Lara is being picked for here, on the reasoning that Sobers will bowl and be a 5th bowler. Whereas in the previous Post WSC poll Kallis lost to Murali for the last spot when he would have done essentially the same thing that Sobers is being picked for here. So it's the difference of them as bowlers.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Don't need another bowler. I don't like the bowling lineup, though it is still excellent, but everyone gets to bat, not everyone gets to bowl. I'll go with the batsman (reluctantly).
 

bagapath

International Captain
LOL, I am not talking about them as middle-order batsmen. Essentially, Lara is being picked for here, on the reasoning that Sobers will bowl and be a 5th bowler. Whereas in the previous Post WSC poll Kallis lost to Murali for the last spot when he would have done essentially the same thing that Sobers is being picked for here. So it's the difference of them as bowlers.
LOL. how the hell is it a comparison of sobers and kallis' bowling skills?

Ikki, if you want to independently compare sobers and kallis' bowling skills and want to prove kallis is a better bowler then go ahead. I dont care. but understand that sobers made it to this team even if he werent supposed to bowl a single over. he made it purely as a batsman. we never had to bring him to the no.6 poll and compare his allround skills with miller or imran. once he is in as a middle order batsman, then his additional skill as a bowler gives you choices for selecting the next player. kallis could not get into the team ahead of richards, sachin and lara.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
LOL. how the hell is it a comparison of sobers and kallis' bowling skills?

Ikki, if you want to independently compare sobers and kallis' bowling skills and want to prove kallis is a better bowler then go ahead. I dont care. but understand that sobers made it to this team even if he werent supposed to bowl a single over. he made it purely as a batsman. we never had to bring him to the no.6 poll and compare his allround skills with miller or imran. once he is in as a middle order batsman, then his additional skill as a bowler gives you choices for selecting the next player. kallis could not get into the team ahead of richards, sachin and lara.
You don't seem to understand, the difference between this poll and the last was that people in that poll wanted the extra specialist bowler. Yet in this poll the extra specialist batter is being picked.

So having asked why, I was given the reason that because Sobers will be the 5th bowler (even though he was picked as a middle-order bat), we don't need a 5th bowler. However, in that other poll, Kallis could have also comfortably been the 5th bowler yet wasn't voted in. So the difference was their bowling, not their batting.

Get it? Think it over a few times. You're mixing up the logic.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
You don't seem to understand, the difference between this poll and the last was that people in that poll wanted the extra bowler. Yet in this poll the extra batter is being picked.

So having asked why, I was given the reason that because Sobers will be the 5th bowler (even though he was picked as a middle-order bat), we don't need a 5th bowler. However, in that other poll, Kallis could have also comfortably been the 5th bowler yet wasn't voted in. So the difference was their bowling, not their batting.

Get it?
sobers was good enough to get in as a batsman and his bowling was an added feature. kallis was not good enough to get in as a batsman so his bowling skills didnt matter. so there is no way you can prove sobers got into this team because he was considered a bowler compared to kallis. kallis is not good enough to get in as anything. so might as well compare their fielding skills or their girl friends' busts.

i know you are deliberately getting into an argument. why dont you just write what you want to write and compare kalli and sobers as bowlers and be done with it?

i am done.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
sobers was good enough to get in as a batsman and his bowling was an added feature. kallis was not good enough to get in as a batsman so his bowling skills didnt matter. so there is no way you can prove sobers got into this team because he was better as a bowler compared to kallis. kallis is not good enought to get in as anything. so might as well compare their fielding skills or their girl friends' busts.

i know you are deliberately getting into an argument. why dont you just write what you want to write and compare kalli and sobers as bowlers and be done with it?

i am done.
I'll just put this down to the fact that you can't seem to wrap your head around this. I am not talking about why Sobers got into the team but why Lara did. Someone said the reason Lara is getting into the side is because we have Sobers as an option for a 5th bowler.

As I questioned, why in that other poll did people see fit to vote for a specialist bowler when Kallis, for that team, would do what Sobers did for this team.

If you have a problem understanding what someone else is saying, at least have the courtesy not to then insult them. Something tells me I am sure you will still not understand my point.
 

bagapath

International Captain
I'll just put this down to the fact that you can't seem to wrap your head around this. I am not talking about why Sobers got into the team but why Lara did. Someone said the reason Lara is getting into the side is because we have Sobers as an option for a 5th bowler.

As I questioned, why in that other poll did people see fit to vote for a specialist bowler when Kallis, for that team, would do what Sobers did for this team.

If you have a problem understanding what someone else is saying, at least have the courtesy not to then insult them. Something tells me I am sure you will still not understand my point.
thanks for those nice courteous words.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
stop enjoying your own farts. it is very bad for your mental health.
:laugh: 8-)

thanks for those nice courteous words.
You were expecting "thanks, sir" after your post were you?

When I asked you to think it over a few times, I genuinely thought you were not understanding what I was saying and that you were simply on the wrong track. Because you replied showing you still hadn't thought about it properly, I think I'm in the right to assume you just won't get it because you simply won't go back and look at what I said.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
one last time... then i am wishing you "good day" and going my way...

Kallis, for that team, would do what Sobers did for this team.
kallis can not do to his team what sobers does to his... sobers got into his team as a batsman... kallis did not get in as anything... remember lara beat kallis in the batting poll. and sobers has beaten lara in the batting poll here. so sobers is considered way above kallis as a batsman. sobers > lara > kallis.

so it is not their relative bowling skills that guided the voters one way... kallis could be inferior or superior or equal to sobers as a bowler. that doesnt matter for this selection.

good day
 
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steve132

U19 Debutant
This is a brutal choice.

We have a team that will be strong in both batting and bowling whoever is selected, and Imran, Miller and Lara are all greats of the game. If Murali had been in the team I would have opted for Imran, so that we would have three great fast bowlers (Marshall, Hadlee and Imran) plus Warne and Murali, plus Sobers. An embarrassment of riches.

Ultimately, however, I have to agree with Bagapath and Zaremba's arguments. There is little point in having FOUR right arm fast bowlers in a team. Given the balance of the team already selected, I opted for Lara, so that the batting lineup would read:

Hutton
Gavaskar
Richards
Lara
Tendulkar
Sobers
Gilchrist

Not many bowlers would enjoy facing that array of batsmen.
 

Maximus0723

State Regular
one last time... then i am wishing you "good day" and going my way...



kallis can not do to his team what sobers does to his... sobers got into his team as a batsman... kallis did not get in as anything... remember lara beat kallis in the batting poll. and sobers has beaten lara in the batting poll here. so sobers is considered way above kallis as a batsman. sobers > lara > kallis.

so it is not their relative bowling skills that guided the voters one way... kallis could be inferior or superior or equal to sobers as a bowler. that doesnt matter for this selection.

good day
can i see the poll? I want to see what arguements ppl made.
 

JBH001

International Regular
Not sure if you have read much about Miller? But imo if he had never bowled he would have been considered one of Australia's great batsman:)
High praise, AM. And no, I have not read much about Miller.

But the averages are interesting, although, of course, by no means totally indicative of anything.

His total batting average is 36.97 with 7 centuries and 13 half centuries.
His average at home is 40 with 3 centuries and 7 half centuries.
His average away is 34 with 4 centuries and 6 half centuries.

Good figures, no doubt. But, in no way outstanding, especially for someone whose batting is usually so lauded. Especially in terms of batting at 6 where, imo, its probably more important that one is able to bat well than that one is able to bowl well. Miller would probably be a better no. 7.

Even his list of hundreds is interesting.

His first in 1946 against England, 141 batting at 5, came against an attack of Bedser, Edrich, Wright, Yardley, Ikin, and Compton.

Only Wright was a decent bowler, Bedser was just starting out and was not the bowler he would become in 3 - 4 years time. IIRC he averaged 50 something in the series. All in all, a poor attack.

His second in 1951 against England, 145 batting at 5, came against an attack of Bedser, Warr, Brown, and Compton. Only Bedser is significant in that line-up, at the peak of his powers.

His third in 1951 against West Indies, 129 batting at 5, came against an attack of Jones, Gomez, Worrell, Valentine, Ramadhin, and Goddard.

His fourth in 1953 against England, 109 batting at 3, came against an attack of Bedser, Statham, Brown, Bailey, Wardle, and Compton. The presence of Bedser, a rookie Statham, and Wardle, make this a fine hundred against a fine attack.

His fifth hundred in 1955 against West Indies, 147 batting at 4, came against an attack of King, Worrell, Atkinson, Ramadhin, Valentine, Smith, Walcott etc.

His sixth hundred in the same series, 137 batting at 5, came against an attack of Worrell, Dewdney, Walcott, Valentine, Ramadhin, Atkinson, Smith, Sobers.

His seventh and last hundred in the same series, 109 batting at 5, came against an attack of Dewdney, King, Atkinson, Smith, Worrell, Sobers.

I find those hundreds quite telling.

Also the fact that even while he averaged 34 away, he averaged 24 in England, the home of the best opposition side of his time.

But, as you say, I may need to read more about Miller. But there is a little danger of looking at Miller through rose-tinted glasses, I think. Not that players and journalists back then did not know the game or any rubbish like that, but that post war England was a place of privations, rations, and austerity. A dashing, charistmatic, and handsome man like Miller may have had an impact that was out of proportion to his talents and actual results. Hence my doubts as to whether he is good enough for 6 or higher in an all time XI.

Again, not to make this into a long winded argument with lots of mini posts. I simply have heard alot of Miller and his batting on this site, and decided to go and have a look at his record myself. As I said, I find it quite interesting, for some of the reasons outlined above.
 
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archie mac

International Coach
High praise, AM. And no, I have not read much about Miller.

But the averages are interesting, although, of course, by no means totally indicative of anything.

His total batting average is 36.97 with 7 centuries and 13 half centuries.
His average at home is 40 with 3 centuries and 7 half centuries.
His average away is 34 with 4 centuries and 6 half centuries.

Good figures, no doubt. But, in no way outstanding, especially for someone whose batting is usually so lauded. Especially in terms of batting at 6 where, imo, its probably more important that one is able to bat well than that one is able to bowl well. Miller would probably be a better no. 7.

Even his list of hundreds is interesting.

His first in 1946 against England, 141 batting at 5, came against an attack of Bedser, Edrich, Wright, Yardley, Ikin, and Compton.

Only Wright was a decent bowler, Bedser was just starting out and was not the bowler he would become in 3 - 4 years time. IIRC he averaged 50 something in the series. All in all, a poor attack.

His second in 1951 against England, 145 batting at 5, came against an attack of Bedser, Warr, Brown, and Compton. Only Bedser is significant in that line-up, at the peak of his powers.

His third in 1951 against West Indies, 129 batting at 5, came against an attack of Jones, Gomez, Worrell, Valentine, Ramadhin, and Goddard.

His fourth in 1953 against England, 109 batting at 3, came against an attack of Bedser, Statham, Brown, Bailey, Wardle, and Compton. The presence of Bedser, a rookie Statham, and Wardle, make this a fine hundred against a fine attack.

His fifth hundred in 1955 against West Indies, 147 batting at 4, came against an attack of King, Worrell, Atkinson, Ramadhin, Valentine, Smith, Walcott etc.

His sixth hundred in the same series, 137 batting at 5, came against an attack of Worrell, Dewdney, Walcott, Valentine, Ramadhin, Atkinson, Smith, Sobers.

His seventh and last hundred in the same series, 109 batting at 5, came against an attack of Dewdney, King, Atkinson, Smith, Worrell, Sobers.

I find those hundreds quite telling.

Also the fact that even while he averaged 34 away, he averaged 24 in England, the home of the best opposition side of his time.

But, as you say, I may need to read more about Miller. But there is a little danger of looking at Miller through rose-tinted glasses, I think. Not that players and journalists back then did not know the game or any rubbish like that, but that post war England was a place of privations, rations, and austerity. A dashing, charistmatic, and handsome man like Miller may have had an impact that was out of proportion to his talents and actual results. Hence my doubts as to whether he is good enough for 6 or higher in an all time XI.

Again, not to make this into a long winded argument with lots of mini posts. I simply have heard alot of Miller and his batting on this site, and decided to go and have a look at his record myself. As I said, I find it quite interesting, for some of the reasons outlined above.
I think Aust. went for a number of years without scoring a ton against England during Miller's time, which suggests a pretty good line up. And it should be mentioned that he was one of the main bowlers in his team. Not like Kallis who is usually the third or fourth strike bowler (nothing against Kallis, just an example).

I could be wrong but I think if you read a bio of Miller you also will be converted:)
 

bagapath

International Captain
well i am already a miller fan, no doubt. but just cant convince myself he could get a regular batting place in an all-time aussie middle order, even post ww2 for that matter. though as an allrounder he edges out other greats such as gregory, armstrong and noble and bowling all-rounders like lindwall, davidson and benaud quite comfortably. but archie, your vote for miller is totally justified. you can always vote with your heart in these imaginary team selections. i always vote for warne over murali, whereas statistically murali i feel has the edge.
 

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