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*Official* England in West Indies

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
This would be at the top of my list of the things Bell is bad at. Hard to see how Bopara could be worse (in fact he has form in ODIs for batting rather well under extreme pressure).
Bopara could be worse because there's no evidence whatsoever so far of him being a Test-class batsman. His only 3 Tests so far all produced very poor performances indeed.

Bell at six, however, has performed more than acceptably at the task most often required there - ramming home an advantage gained by those batting above him.
 

Penguinissimo

U19 12th Man
TBH, the long-run can go to hell IMO. This is Test cricket. We're 0-1 down in a series we were expected to win fairly easily. The here and now is essentially the only thing that matters.
If any England side over the past 4 years had been picked on that basis I'd have a bit more sympathy. But the claims of some obviously superior players to the ones who have been in the side at any given time have been ignored in favour of people who might be world class in the future.

In fact, it was basically the only argument for keeping Bell in the side for a very long time.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If any England side over the past 4 years had been picked on that basis I'd have a bit more sympathy. But the claims of some obviously superior players to the ones who have been in the side at any given time have been ignored in favour of people who might be world class in the future.
I know - and it irritates the hell out of me because it's such patently wrong strategism, and makes a mockery of what Test cricket is supposed to be about.

So I always hope that things will change sometime. And maybe being 0-1 down in a series everyone expected you to win might help, if only temporarily in this case, concentrate a few minds.
 

ozone

First Class Debutant
Of course. However, the point is that I don't think Bopara does have a better chance than Bell of scoring, for the reasons I've given.
Well, I disagree, Bell has shown that he has long term problems with the mental side of his game. Taking a game out and then coming straight back in makes no sense, he needs to spend a period of time playing county cricket and filling his boots before he is even considered for a test recall. However, I can see his career developing in a similar way to Mark Ramprakash's.

Personally I take zero notice of what's happened in this tour-game, it's a two-dayer against mostly nobodies.

TBH, right now I think Vaughan should be in the squad ahead of Bopara. I think Bopara has done less than either of them to merit a Test chance.
Regardless of how you see this tour game, it is almost certainly acting as a shoot-off for the spot to replace Flintoff.

Much as I would agree that Vaughan should have been called up ahead of Bopara, the fact is he hasn't, and is unlikely to be recalled now. Bopara has been playing in the academy side, and on that basis, has been picked as the best of the batsmen in that squad.

Whether you believe Patel or Vaughan or whoever else should have been given a chance ahead of Bopara is irrelavent in selecting between him and Bell. Personally, I can't understand the logic in going back to Bell, although you clearly disagree. Think we'll have to agree to disagree TBH.
 

Penguinissimo

U19 12th Man
Well, fair enough. And to be honest, the main silver lining of the 51ao debacle was that there was a chance of knocking England out of their complacency, so now's as good a time to change as any.

The biggest test, of course, will be the Ashes, when the selectors absolutely should ask themselves before each Test: "Regardless of who we've picked in the past, based on current form which 11 players out of every English-qualified player currently playing will give us the best chance of winning?".
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well, I disagree, Bell has shown that he has long term problems with the mental side of his game. Taking a game out and then coming straight back in makes no sense, he needs to spend a period of time playing county cricket and filling his boots before he is even considered for a test recall. However, I can see his career developing in a similar way to Mark Ramprakash's.
Well I can't. Bell has already done far more than Ramprakash ever did at Test level. I think the mental side of Bell's problems is a bit overstated; it's not like Test cricket overawes him, it's just stronger attacks generally have the better of him. In that way he's rather more akin to John Crawley than anyone.

Also I don't see a period of boot-filling in county cricket doing any real help (though clearly it's not something that can ever hinder a batsman), because he's been there done that before and the Test returns have remained.
Regardless of how you see this tour game, it is almost certainly acting as a shoot-off for the spot to replace Flintoff.

Much as I would agree that Vaughan should have been called up ahead of Bopara, the fact is he hasn't, and is unlikely to be recalled now. Bopara has been playing in the academy side, and on that basis, has been picked as the best of the batsmen in that squad.

Whether you believe Patel or Vaughan or whoever else should have been given a chance ahead of Bopara is irrelavent in selecting between him and Bell. Personally, I can't understand the logic in going back to Bell, although you clearly disagree. Think we'll have to agree to disagree TBH.
Whether Bopara should've got the squad call-up ahead of others is indeed irrelevant to the question of him or Bell - but as I say, I simply think Bell has the better case. If you don't, that's not a POV completely devoid of merit either, because Bopara is certainly not hopeless nor devoid of promise, but the thing I fight against is the idea that Bell must not come back after only being dropped for 1 game.
 

ozone

First Class Debutant
Well I can't. Bell has already done far more than Ramprakash ever did at Test level. I think the mental side of Bell's problems is a bit overstated; it's not like Test cricket overawes him, it's just stronger attacks generally have the better of him. In that way he's rather more akin to John Crawley than anyone.
Perhaps comparing him to Ramps is harsh, but I meant it more in the way that I don't think Bell will ever fulfil his potential at the highest level, but will continue to score thousands of runs at FC level.
 

Evermind

International Debutant
I must say that I also believe that Bell is test-class (he's just going through a really lean patch) while Bopara from what I've seen of him so far simply doesn't look it. I predict 3 sub-30 scores in three innings and maybe one plodding 50+ score.

People here are far too harsh on Bell and Panesar. I don't think they're all that much worse than the rest of the England lineup.

And I don't mean it as an indictment of the rest of the team.

Well maybe a little. :devil2:
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Here's the latest (final?) score. 5 wickets for Amjad, although he went at over 5-an-over. Rashid didn't excactly run though them. As didn't Panesar.


BBC SPORT | Cricket Scorecard
The difference between Sid's & Khan's figures is almost chucklesome. 2/19 off 13 overs for the former; the latter's 15 overs yielding 5/79.

Fair to say Amjad will bowl wicket taking deliveries, but is going to get some serious tap.

If Swanny's fit tho I reckon Bell for Sir Frederick and a swap of keepers are the only changes we'll see. Slight chance for Sid over Harmison if conditions suggest swing is likely I suppose.
 

alw1971

Cricket Spectator
Exactly how fast is Amjad? May go for a few runs but then again which England FAST bowler did not? He may compliment someone like Sidebottom? It must be said that we always struggle to knock over the tail, he may go at 5 an over but can he knock over the tail and take some wickets?:unsure:
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Exactly how fast is Amjad? May go for a few runs but then again which England FAST bowler did not? He may compliment someone like Sidebottom? It must be said that we always struggle to knock over the tail, he may go at 5 an over but can he knock over the tail and take some wickets?:unsure:
Haven't seen him bowl for a couple of years because of his injury and then Kent ignoring him for limited overs stuff for the majority of 2008, but when I saw him he was fast-ish, but not Lee/Ahktar/Tait ultra rapid. Averaged aroung 85-6mph, but could crank the odd one over 90.
 

Jigga988

State 12th Man
Haven't seen him bowl for a couple of years because of his injury and then Kent ignoring him for limited overs stuff for the majority of 2008, but when I saw him he was fast-ish, but not Lee/Ahktar/Tait ultra rapid. Averaged aroung 85-6mph, but could crank the odd one over 90.
So just like all the other English pace bowlers then bar Freddy...
 

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