wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Hard to say. Apparently Bopara was dropped on 23, after which he enjoyed carting some guys I'd never heard of. I don't think Khan's in the fame at this stage.
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*Official* England in West Indies
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
Jigga988
State 12th Man
If both Swann and Sidebottom are injured then surely he has to be... supposed to be quite a good bowler when at full fitness which he hasn't recently been at, I think he could be dangerous on a green top, and Barbados is as close to that as you'll find in the Windies.
Magrat Garlick
Global Moderator
Me neither.
Have to say I'm enjoying the opening bowlers' name though. Step forth, Barrington Bjorn Beckenbauer Yearwood
Opening batsman Kofie Hurdle also worth a mention.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
For a second I thought you were actually saying there was a guy called Step Forth.
roseboy64
Cricket Web Content Updater
ozone
First Class Debutant
Hmm, actually been swayed and now agree with Richards logic about who should be Freddies replacement. However, if it is a result pitch, the batsman to come in should probably be Bopara rather than Bell (not basing this purely on performance today BTW). And if it looks like it might be a draw pitch, we play the extra bowler. In the former circumstance, Harmison surely has to be dropped and Sidebottom play.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
Team for the next Test should be:
Strauss
Cook
Shah
KP
Colly
Bopara
Prior / Ambrose - depending on whether Prior has to go home
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar / Swann
4-man attack
Playing five bowlers is a luxury which only a genuine all-rounder affords. There is no way you can move Prior up to 6 and Broad at 7, even with Swann at 8 that's too dodgy. And if Prior goes home then there really is no discussion, so six specialist bats it is.
Bell / Bopara
There is no way Bell should be let back in. He has just been dropped for very good long-standing reasons, and for that to mean anything he has to stay dropped. Bopara is one of the few players to have made a convincing case for inclusion over a prolonged period in county cricket, so give him another shot.
Reliability of bowlers
With a four man attack, you really can't afford to be carrying people. For that reason, if Swann is injured, Rashid cannot play this game - if he struggles to adjust, we'll be in real trouble. At least Monty is reliable and can tie up an end.
For the same reason, Sidebottom must play instead of one of Harmy or Anderson, and Khan should not be seriously considered. Pretty ambivalent as to which, to be honest - my patience has run out with both.
Strauss
Cook
Shah
KP
Colly
Bopara
Prior / Ambrose - depending on whether Prior has to go home
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar / Swann
4-man attack
Playing five bowlers is a luxury which only a genuine all-rounder affords. There is no way you can move Prior up to 6 and Broad at 7, even with Swann at 8 that's too dodgy. And if Prior goes home then there really is no discussion, so six specialist bats it is.
Bell / Bopara
There is no way Bell should be let back in. He has just been dropped for very good long-standing reasons, and for that to mean anything he has to stay dropped. Bopara is one of the few players to have made a convincing case for inclusion over a prolonged period in county cricket, so give him another shot.
Reliability of bowlers
With a four man attack, you really can't afford to be carrying people. For that reason, if Swann is injured, Rashid cannot play this game - if he struggles to adjust, we'll be in real trouble. At least Monty is reliable and can tie up an end.
For the same reason, Sidebottom must play instead of one of Harmy or Anderson, and Khan should not be seriously considered. Pretty ambivalent as to which, to be honest - my patience has run out with both.
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Strauss
Cook
Shah
KP
Colly
Prior
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom/Panesar/Rashid/Bopara
Anderson
Harmison
It depends on the pitch for the last spot really. Only on a real result pitch would you pick a batsman. If it's another draw pitch you'd go Rashid, in between then go with Sidebottom/Panesar as necessary. Regardless of all what the Harmison-haters think the reality is all the bowlers (except Flintoff obviously as he was injured) did well in the last Test, they just didn't get much luck and Strauss botched it by not making them follow-on.
Sidebottom has barely played for 6 months, Panesar is rubbish, Rashid is more of a 5th bowler and Khan is well Khan. There's no good reason to drop any of them and the replacements are weak at present.
Cook
Shah
KP
Colly
Prior
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom/Panesar/Rashid/Bopara
Anderson
Harmison
It depends on the pitch for the last spot really. Only on a real result pitch would you pick a batsman. If it's another draw pitch you'd go Rashid, in between then go with Sidebottom/Panesar as necessary. Regardless of all what the Harmison-haters think the reality is all the bowlers (except Flintoff obviously as he was injured) did well in the last Test, they just didn't get much luck and Strauss botched it by not making them follow-on.
Sidebottom has barely played for 6 months, Panesar is rubbish, Rashid is more of a 5th bowler and Khan is well Khan. There's no good reason to drop any of them and the replacements are weak at present.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Not to be confused with Nixon McLean, who I presume is now in retirement?
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
That's not how things work. Bell is a better batsman than Bopara, has proven his worth far more than Bopara (Bopara has had 2 good seasons, no more) and if Bopara should play ahead of him, what would essentially be being said is that someone who was - rightly - judged not good enough for the squad a week ago is now playing ahead of someone who was judged good enough to play the opening Test.
You don't drop someone and say "he's not getting back in for X amount of time". Just a terrible way to go about selection. You drop someone until such a time as it'd weaken the team to not bring him back in. If that's 1 match, so be it. If that's never, so be it. It simply smacks of putting one's grudge against a single player ahead of all other considerations to suggest that Bopara has to play ahead of Bell right now.
Right now I have far more confidence in Bell's ability to score runs, at six, playing as a replacement player, than I do in Bopara's.
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
Very interesting.
ozone
First Class Debutant
What? Bell was judged to be good enough (or in good enough form), but ATM, if they judge Bopara to have a better chance to score runs (as I feel many people do TBH) then he should play ahead of Bell.
To use an argument that was used against Vaughan, what has Bell done in the past week to get back in the side? Bopara in contrast has been called up to the squad, played in the tour game, and hit an unbeaten hundred.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
I can certainly see the point. However, the reasons Bell was dropped are long term things which haven't fixed themselves. Equally, it is far from certain that Shah is the answer at 3, he is simply next in line.
I know that England want to win this series, but in the long run this is a good time to find out more about both Bopara and Shah with a view to one of them being in the team for the next couple of years. Hence why I'd play Bopara here.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Of course. However, the point is that I don't think Bopara does have a better chance than Bell of scoring, for the reasons I've given.
Personally I take zero notice of what's happened in this tour-game, it's a two-dayer against mostly nobodies.
TBH, right now I think Vaughan should be in the squad ahead of Bopara. I think Bopara has done less than either of them to merit a Test chance.
What have either of them done to merit getting back in the side? Nothing. It's just a gap has opened now that wasn't there last time the matter was under consideration.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
The reason Bell was dropped is that Shah was, rightly, judged to have a better case to play than Bell. The same is not true of Bopara. And if Shah is to play, I want him at three - three is the position he's batted for the last ages (I think since Langer and Ramprakash left Middlesex - their last season was 2000) and the one he's had all his success in. Given the vacancy is there, it'd be mad to have him anywhere else.
TBH, the long-run can go to hell IMO. This is Test cricket. We're 0-1 down in a series we were expected to win fairly easily. The here and now is essentially the only thing that matters. We'll work-out who's playing for the next 2 years based on what happens here, and who responds well to the need of the hour - which at present is to pull this series back to 1-1.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
Just now, it has been announced that Prior will miss the 4th test. Can we please now stop talking about only playing 5 specialist batsmen? Presumably nobody is deluded enough to think that either Ambrose or Broad is a Test 6.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
This would be at the top of my list of the things Bell is bad at. Hard to see how Bopara could be worse (in fact he has form in ODIs for batting rather well under extreme pressure).
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
I actually think, and always have done, that Ambrose has the ability to be - every bit as much if not more than Prior. However, there is absolutely no way he can possibly be risked as one right now, because he's proven little as a Test batsman and it's as likely he'll not be up to it as that he will.
It surely absolutely has to be six specialist bats now.