**Official** New Zealand in Australia

[Zinzan]

I think what they've missed is that it's a no ball if the gloves are infront of the stumps during delivery...I don't think you'll find a keeper of international standard anywhere in the world who moves his gloves towards the ball as it's coming at him. Haddin's fingertips look to have been infront of the stumps when the ball was delivered, but he's clearly moving them towards his body in preparation to take the ball when he clips the bails. So he could well have clipped the bails and still taken the ball level with the stumps or behind them. It certainly sounds like the ball clips the stumps on the replay at normal speed. What this person has said is great if you want to accuse Haddin of cheating, but it seems to lack common sense or knowledge of how the keeper takes the ball...and I'd guess it's deliberate in an attempt to make their point.

The guy shouldn't have been out, but the way some people are carrying out about what he 'should have known' etc is pretty ridiculous.

As I said earlier, I don't for a minute think his intention was to deliberately knock the bails off, but I believe that he knew his gloves had hit first & were in front of the wickets after it happened. His initial reaction to the dismissal backs this up. At this point I feel he should have been obliged to tell the umpire he wasn't sure. He had this opportunity & didn't take it. Thats the problem I have with it, there was obviously some doubt & now he's been made to look like an idiot, now everyone can see it was clearly not out.

If you did see the you-tube clip, you should pay some attention to the various comments made by folks from Australia, stating how disappointed they are with Haddin & the whole incident. So don't try & make out I'm the lone-ranger on this one.

In retrospect the term "blatant cheating' was OTT, but I still think given the way he reacted, it looked like he felt something was untoward & didn't bother clarifying it with the umpire, so whilst it may not be 'blatant cheating' it was 'dishonest' at best from Haddin.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Fair enough.

Yeah, its really the "100% thing" and subsequent slamming of Vettori that I'm more disappointed with.

Unfortunately, he had his chance to say he had even the slightest doubt. His captain has backed him up on his original story, and he has caused a fuss over the opposition captains comments, taking them out of context. Going back on the 100% comment is impossible now.

That's true...and I agree with you, I don't see how he could have been 100% sure either. There must have been some doubt and he does look at the square leg umpire and hesitate.

 

[Precambrian]

Exactly, and I said that to being with. The guy shouldn't have been out. But his gloves were infront to start with...it doesn't mean they stayed there and on replay I can't see any reason why the ball couldn't have clipped the top of the stump and ended up in his gloves...they're not infront of the stumps. In watching the replay again I think he broke the bails with his fingertips as the ball went into his gloves and it actually passed over the top. Suggesting he could have known this though is the ridiculous part...he didn't do it in slow motion.

Let's not forget you take the ball in the middle of the gloves, not the fingertips. It's not impossible that he thought the ball hit the bails on the way through.

Lol, you just are proved wrong.

 

[_Ed_]

Have to say, that's a very impressive post Precambrian. Those are some very good screenshots.

 

[Zinzan]

Okay here I've got 4 screenshots.


Screenshot No. 2

This is the money shot for mine

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Have to say, that's a very impressive post Precambrian. Those are some very good screenshots.

Yeah, but followed by this....

Lol, you just are proved wrong.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Okay here I've got 4 screenshots.

That's all well and good, and as I said in my last post the replay does seem to show the ball going over the top of the stumps and his fingertips breaking the bails.

A few problems with the argument though re: those pics...

1) You don't catch the ball in your fingertips...
2) Haddin's tilts his fingertips down and moves his hands toward his body as he takes the ball meaning when it comes into contact with his gloves the impact is more than likely in line with or slightly behind the stumps which would have added to the confusion.

As I also said...I agree he shouldn't have been out, so I certainly don't disagree with you there.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Lol, you just are proved wrong.

You are right...in those screenshots his hands aren't moving at all. Well done.

 

[pasag]

Haha, impressive.

 

[Precambrian]

Thanks _Ed_. Worth the 10 minutes I spent on it. Wanted to be doubly sure.

And the "illusion" of ball hitting the bails and then popping into Haddin's gloves is caused by the ball actually hitting the base of his gloves and then moving upward into the palm.

 

[Precambrian]

Yeah, but followed by this....

KN, always hard to please. Glad am not your girl/boy.

 

[Zinzan]

You are right...in those screenshots his hands aren't moving at all. Well done.

Its easier to see if you take those yellow-shaded glasses off

 

[four_or_six]

I think that's a very interesting post with the screenshots. Whether Haddin deliberately celebrated knowing there was some doubt or not (he would hardly be the first!), I think screenshot two shows significant doubt as to it hitting the bails first. I think Haddin's response to what Vettori said is pretty unfair.

 

[Precambrian]

That's all well and good, and as I said in my last post the replay does seem to show the ball going over the top of the stumps and his fingertips breaking the bails.

A few problems with the argument though re: those pics...

1) You don't catch the ball in your fingertips...
2) Haddin's tilts his fingertips down and moves his hands toward his body as he takes the ball meaning when it comes into contact with his gloves the impact is more than likely in line with or slightly behind the stumps which would have added to the confusion.

As I also said...I agree he shouldn't have been out, so I certainly don't disagree with you there.

And the "illusion" of ball hitting the bails and then popping into Haddin's gloves is caused by the ball actually hitting the base of his gloves and then moving upward into the palm.

That. The ball got entrenched in the palm after hitting the base of the gloves than the stumps.

 

[Son Of Coco]

That. The ball got entrenched in the palm after hitting the base of the gloves than the stumps.

Thank you...so the ball actually hits the gloves in an area that is level with or slightly behind the stumps which might be why Haddin wasn't sure. The problem with your pics is they don't show the ball where it finished and they don't show the gloves moving as Haddin takes the ball. He finishes with the fingertips pointing more towards the ground hence the bails being dislodged.

 

[Zinzan]

I think that's a very interesting post with the screenshots. Whether Haddin deliberately celebrated knowing there was some doubt or not (he would hardly be the first!), I think screenshot two shows significant doubt as to it hitting the bails first. I think Haddin's response to what Vettori said is pretty unfair.

Bang on the money there.

 

[Zinzan]

Thank you...so the ball actually hits the gloves in an area that is level with or slightly behind the stumps which might be why Haddin wasn't sure. The problem with your pics is they don't show the ball where it finished and they don't show the gloves moving as Haddin takes the ball. He finishes with the fingertips pointing more towards the ground hence the bails being dislodged.

So if Haddin may not have been sure, why wouldn't he have made that clear to the umpire?

 

[Son Of Coco]

Its easier to see if you take those yellow-shaded glasses off

I've said a thousand times (well at least 3 or 4 now) his fingertips clipped the bails not the ball. I've watched the replay countless times and I know he hit them with his fingertips...but those screenshots show Haddin's hands in positions where the ball hasn't fully entered the gloves and his hands aren't moving so it gives a slightly false impression of what he should or shouldn't of known.

I don't have yellow-shaded glasses on mate, I've said he shouldn't have been out and that Haddin clipped the bails (there it is again for you, copy and paste it if it helps you remember better). Your reaction was ridiculous though. That's what I had a problem with. That and things like those pics being offered up as definitive proof - they show you his hands were in front but that's it. Watch the Youtube video. It's much better.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

So if Haddin may not have been sure, why wouldn't he have made that clear to the umpire?

or after the match when he had the chance.

As a result of his 100% comment he has left himself no out clause.
If he said "I had doubt but as the umpires did nothing I thought it must have been out" then it would have been forgiven, I'm sure. He could have even apologized after seeing a replay, and I'm sure all would have been forgiven in the end. (different story if NZ lose of course)

But of course he didn't, and has made matter worse.
I'm beginning to understand why users have called Haddin "a knob" in the past.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Its easier to see if you take those yellow-shaded glasses off

SOC is not saying that the ball hit the stumps first, but in the way a keeper catches a ball he might not have felt the tips of the glove hitting the stumps.