• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Should Matthew Hayden retire?

Should Matthew Hayden retire?


  • Total voters
    109

howardj

International Coach
Who said I was talking about Hayden's experience in terms of captaincy? When I was talking about experience I was talking about Hayden the batsmen being experienced knowing what will come next or what won't. If it wasn't for Hayden's cricketing intelligence, he would not have played cricket for so long. :
****, why don't Boony and Merv just recall themselves to the team in their next selection meeting. Then we can have even more experience. How much experience do you want in the batting order mate? Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Katich.
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
so his experience as a batsman 'knowing what will come next' (like nostradamus) will benefit his teamates how ? sorry if i thought you might be talking about how his experience could benefit his teamates in ways that someone can actually use.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
****, why don't Boony and Merv just recall themselves to the team in their next selection meeting. Then we can have even more experience. How much experience do you want in the batting order mate? Ponting, Hussey, Clarke, Katich.
Because Boony and Merv compare to Hayden's situation...yes...sure. 8-)

How many of them are openers of his caliber?
 
Last edited:

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
so his experience as a batsman 'knowing what will come next' (like nostradamus) will benefit his teamates how ? sorry if i thought you might be talking about how his experience could benefit his teamates in ways that someone can actually use.
If they go to S.Africa he knows how the pitch plays. He's experienced in facing S.African bowlers. He knows how to deal with certain game situations and how to prepare. He is an all-time test great. This being infinitely more desirable than having a green opener whilst the bowling attack is finding it's feet and may be without Lee and Clark. Does a Phil Jaques know how to approach Ntini, for example? I don't think Phil would even make that series anyway so it's someone even less experienced than him.

Hayden is not Merv nor Boon as howard pathetically put it. Less than a year ago he was our best batsmen. It's not exactly rolling the dice or killing the career of a young opener to see how it would pan out.

But I guess because you allegedly said something 2 years ago, you're gonna cram it down our throats that you were right all along. Ok, we get it.
 
Last edited:

grant28

School Boy/Girl Captain
No he shouldnt, not just yet. Keep him at least until the after the end of the ashes series. If he hasnt improved a lot or australia have won, then he should retire. However, if he still keeps banging out 100s then possibly stay for longer.
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
he may well be done and dusted though, and do we really want to find out by giving him first nut in the return series when jaques is a proven test match opener, or hughes/rogers could be the real deal ?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, it is somewhat telling that every time Hayden hits a bad run of form people start up with the "see! told you! flat track bully!" stuff, but when Dravid can hardly get it off the square he's just having mental issues or whatever. They're both amazing batsmen having a terrible run that may well end their careers. Or maybe not, they've both been out of form in the past as well.

I don't see how Hayden's poor form means that he is actually terrible and the last 8 years means nothing, but Dravid's poor form is just a blemish.
Haha, what? Let's see one person who's actually said one thing for one and another for the other.

Not for the first time you're responding to what you'd like to have been said rather than what has. Reminds me so strongly of the time you tried to make-out I'd said White was better than McGrath because I talked-up White in one place and talked-down McGrath in a completely different one.

Because some people are saying one thing about Dravid and some others are saying something else about Hayden doesn't = hypocrisy.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yea many people on this forum & worldwide have the ideological view that Hayden is a "flat-track bully". His slump here is just perfect for many to come down hard on him.
Not really. It's not like the bowling has been magnificence personnified - quite unlike Hayden's supposed form-slump (which was in reality just being worked-out) of 2004/05-2005.

Hayden has simply played poorly in 2008/09. The bowling hasn't particularly been outstanding, but that doesn't change what happened between 2001/02 and 2007/08 either.
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Haha, what? Let's see one person who's actually said one thing for one and another for the other.

Not for the first time you're responding to what you'd like to have been said rather than what has. Reminds me so strongly of the time you tried to make-out I'd said White was better than McGrath because I talked-up White in one place and talked-down McGrath in a completely different one.

Because some people are saying one thing about Dravid and some others are saying something else about Hayden doesn't = hypocrisy.
As much as I enjoy FaaipDeOiad's posts, I'd have to agree with the above. He does sometimes read too much into what a poster doesn't say, rather than what they actually said. And as a general rule, gets overly defensive to any criticism of his Australian team, more-so than most.

By the way, welcome back R
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Not really. It's not like the bowling has been magnificence personnified - quite unlike Hayden's supposed form-slump (which was in reality just being worked-out) of 2004/05-2005.
Haha. Nope. It was a form slump.


Hayden has simply played poorly in 2008/09. The bowling hasn't particularly been outstanding, but that doesn't change what happened between 2001/02 and 2007/08 either.
Excuse me. Yes Hayden's has been poor since his return from injury. But every bowling attack expect for NZ at Adelaide 9 (where Hayden was run out when looking very good) has been very good. Thats is plain fact yo.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Haha, what? Let's see one person who's actually said one thing for one and another for the other.
Obviously it was an exaggeration for effect, but people haven't generally taken Dravid's form slump to mean that he was anything other than a great batsman who is out of form, maybe even "past it". Rightly so of course, there's no reason it should reflect on past achievements. There's been various discussions about this, I'm sure you're aware of them so I won't bother digging one up.

As far as Hayden goes, well, take a look at your own posts for an example, though it's more the general tone of the discussion about Hayden, over a long period of time. When Hayden performs well, it's because he's been playing on flat pitches or against crap bowlers, or when he hasn't been playing against crap bowlers, he's been playing against good bowlers who for some reason were bowling poorly. When he performs badly, which of course is far less often, it's apparently a return to the norm.

The point of course is that many batsmen go through form slumps. What Hayden is doing now doesn't erase what he has done in the past, and the argument that he's a flat track bully because he failed on X occasion against quality pace bowling while ignoring the occasions he has succeeded is absurd. Dravid hasn't been presented with the same ridiculous argument, which was the point of my post.
 
Last edited:

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Obviously it was an exaggeration for effect, but people haven't generally taken Dravid's form slump to mean that he was anything other than a great batsman who is out of form, maybe even "past it". Rightly so of course, there's no reason it should reflect on past achievements. There's been various discussions about this, I'm sure you're aware of them so I won't bother digging one up.

As far as Hayden goes, well, take a look at your own posts for an example, though it's more the general tone of the discussion about Hayden, over a long period of time. When Hayden performs well, it's because he's been playing on flat pitches or against crap bowlers, or when he hasn't been playing against crap bowlers, he's been playing against good bowlers who for some reason were bowling poorly. When he performs badly, which of course is far less often, it's apparently a return to the norm.

The point of course is that many batsmen go through form slumps. What Hayden is doing now doesn't erase what he has done in the past, and the argument that he's a flat track bully because he failed on X occasion against quality pace bowling while ignoring the occasions he has succeeded is absurd. Dravid hasn't been presented with the same ridiculous argument, which was the point of my post.
Obviously what Hayden has done for the past 4 months doesn't change what happened in 6 of the previous 7 years (he had another year-long bout of lack of scoring between Augusts 2004 and 2005, of course), I've made precisely that point earlier this thread.

I don't think anyone's ever called Hayden not scoring "the norm" - the norm for his career from 2001/02 onwards has been scoring. To my mind, that scoring comprises pretty well exclusively of bashing weak seam-bowling on non-seaming pitches, but it's still the norm.

It's the success as much as the failures that defines Hayden as a flat-track (or more accurately non-seaming-track) bully to my mind. Not every time he's had a run of low scoring has been down to being worked-out, obviously, some of it's just been down to playing badly, but there's been enough of such instances - and sufficiently few of him scoring in challenging circumstances - in both his "former" (1993/94-2001) and "latter" (2001/02-2008/09) career parts to call him a non-seaming-track bully, AFAIC.

Similarly, if Hayden were to walk out tomorrow on an SCG minefield that seamed all over the place and score a flawless 156 it would do absolutely nothing to counter the claim that he was a flat-track bully between 2001/02 and 2004 and 2005/06 and 2007/08, precisely because the past is past. The tracks that he scored on and the tracks he did not (not that he scored on every non-seaming track he was presented with, obviously) are the same once what's happened has happened.

The only thing that Hayden scoring a flawless big innings on a seaming deck any time now would prove was that he might have been able to do between 2001/02 and 2007/08 if given enough chances. But equally, he might not have.

My opinion on what has happened so far in Hayden's career is already formed, and nothing is going to change the past so therefore nothing is going to change my opinion.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Haha. Nope. It was a form slump.
It wasn't. He played exactly the same during that period between September '04 and August '05 as he had done for the previous 3 years and would do for the next 2-and-a-half after it.

Only very recently can it genuinely be said Hayden is not playing as he once was. That's perhaps to be expected - most batsmen do at such an advanced age. If it taints his legacy to whatever extent, though (as everything in the year 2001 tainted Michael Atherton's), I'm happy, as as far as I'm concerned he's earnt vast amounts of praise he'd never have had a hope of getting at most times in Test history. This is all well-known and debated by hundreds of people to death, but it's interesting to see that article posted earlier on in this thread saying precisely what I've been saying every day since November 2001.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Similarly, if Hayden were to walk out tomorrow on an SCG minefield that seamed all over the place and score a flawless 156 it would do absolutely nothing to counter the claim that he was a flat-track bully between 2001/02 and 2004 and 2005/06 and 2007/08, precisely because the past is past. The tracks that he scored on and the tracks he did not (not that he scored on every non-seaming track he was presented with, obviously) are the same once what's happened has happened.
The point is that people who have convinced themselves that Hayden is a flat track bully use his poor performances as evidence for their theory and treat good performances as an aberration. The article you praise as sharing your point of view would never have appeared if Hayden had scored the flawless 156 on a seaming minefield that you talk about in the last game, even though you say it wouldn't change your opinion. Articles like that appear because the guy is out of form, and point at his current poor performances as evidence of some sort of longer trend. Dravid on the other hand doesn't suffer from such opportunistic ****kicking.

Well actually, he probably does in India to some degree, I don't know. Not on this board anyway, and not from writers on cricinfo and so on. He's just out of touch, having mental issues, or past his best. None of which seek to paint his current poor performances as evidence that he was never really that good. That's exactly what is happening to Hayden right now, though.
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
Obviously it was an exaggeration for effect, but people haven't generally taken Dravid's form slump to mean that he was anything other than a great batsman who is out of form, maybe even "past it". Rightly so of course, there's no reason it should reflect on past achievements. There's been various discussions about this, I'm sure you're aware of them so I won't bother digging one up.

As far as Hayden goes, well, take a look at your own posts for an example, though it's more the general tone of the discussion about Hayden, over a long period of time. When Hayden performs well, it's because he's been playing on flat pitches or against crap bowlers, or when he hasn't been playing against crap bowlers, he's been playing against good bowlers who for some reason were bowling poorly. When he performs badly, which of course is far less often, it's apparently a return to the norm.

The point of course is that many batsmen go through form slumps. What Hayden is doing now doesn't erase what he has done in the past, and the argument that he's a flat track bully because he failed on X occasion against quality pace bowling while ignoring the occasions he has succeeded is absurd. Dravid hasn't been presented with the same ridiculous argument, which was the point of my post.
dravid has had plenty of flak, he should go too though, but india is a funny place, the fans may well tear the stands down if dravid or tendulkar are dropped if they lost form (even justifiably). he's just made a hundred too, which should see him in for the next 12 months.

Obviously what Hayden has done for the past 4 months doesn't change what happened in 6 of the previous 7 years (he had another year-long bout of lack of scoring between Augusts 2004 and 2005, of course), I've made precisely that point earlier this thread.

I don't think anyone's ever called Hayden not scoring "the norm" - the norm for his career from 2001/02 onwards has been scoring. To my mind, that scoring comprises pretty well exclusively of bashing weak seam-bowling on non-seaming pitches, but it's still the norm.

It's the success as much as the failures that defines Hayden as a flat-track (or more accurately non-seaming-track) bully to my mind. Not every time he's had a run of low scoring has been down to being worked-out, obviously, some of it's just been down to playing badly, but there's been enough of such instances - and sufficiently few of him scoring in challenging circumstances - in both his "former" (1993/94-2001) and "latter" (2001/02-2008/09) career parts to call him a non-seaming-track bully, AFAIC.

Similarly, if Hayden were to walk out tomorrow on an SCG minefield that seamed all over the place and score a flawless 156 it would do absolutely nothing to counter the claim that he was a flat-track bully between 2001/02 and 2004 and 2005/06 and 2007/08, precisely because the past is past. The tracks that he scored on and the tracks he did not (not that he scored on every non-seaming track he was presented with, obviously) are the same once what's happened has happened.

The only thing that Hayden scoring a flawless big innings on a seaming deck any time now would prove was that he might have been able to do between 2001/02 and 2007/08 if given enough chances. But equally, he might not have.

My opinion on what has happened so far in Hayden's career is already formed, and nothing is going to change the past so therefore nothing is going to change my opinion.
It wasn't. He played exactly the same during that period between September '04 and August '05 as he had done for the previous 3 years and would do for the next 2-and-a-half after it.

Only very recently can it genuinely be said Hayden is not playing as he once was. That's perhaps to be expected - most batsmen do at such an advanced age. If it taints his legacy to whatever extent, though (as everything in the year 2001 tainted Michael Atherton's), I'm happy, as as far as I'm concerned he's earnt vast amounts of praise he'd never have had a hope of getting at most times in Test history. This is all well-known and debated by hundreds of people to death, but it's interesting to see that article posted earlier on in this thread saying precisely what I've been saying every day since November 2001.

The point is that people who have convinced themselves that Hayden is a flat track bully use his poor performances as evidence for their theory and treat good performances as an aberration. The article you praise as sharing your point of view would never have appeared if Hayden had scored the flawless 156 on a seaming minefield that you talk about in the last game, even though you say it wouldn't change your opinion. Articles like that appear because the guy is out of form, and point at his current poor performances as evidence of some sort of longer trend. Dravid on the other hand doesn't suffer from such opportunistic ****kicking.

Well actually, he probably does in India to some degree, I don't know. Not on this board anyway, and not from writers on cricinfo and so on. He's just out of touch, having mental issues, or past his best. None of which seek to paint his current poor performances as evidence that he was never really that good. That's exactly what is happening to Hayden right now, though.
the article may have been poorly timed or timed well, depending on how you look at it, but it doesn't change that it is pretty on the mark, whilst hayden has been a champion, he hasn't played the big testing innings as often as a champion should, don't get me wrong, he is good, but he should be nowhere near ranked alongside people like allan border or steve waugh by raw figures, hayden's dominance has come in an era of flat pitches and dibbly dobblies, and on the odd occassion (2005) he has been worked out, currently you could say he is in decline, but he has averaged around 45 since 2005 which although more than respectable, is not the herculian scoring he previously reached.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, I more or less agree with that. I think Hayden has been an excellent test batsmen, one of Australia's best openers and one of the best of the current decade, but he's not on the same level as Ponting or S. Waugh for example. I don't see how that's particualrly relevant to the discussion though. The point is that Hayden is currently batting a lot worse than he has in the past, and his current form isn't a more "accurate" reflection of his abilities than his previous success, any more than is the case for Dravid. To lay the boot in right now and say "see, he really hasn't been that good" is ridiculous, just like it would be for any other declining batsman.

I also think it's ridiculous to suggest that Hayden has benefited from the recent batting-friendly era so much that he'd average in the 20s if he was 10 years younger, but that's another matter.
 

Rant0r

International 12th Man
maybe not the 20's, but the 40's is more reflective

he's definitely in decline, and so is dravid it's not really a case of either of them not being that good, but the selectors seem to want to cling onto them at any cost, but india can carry dravid a bit, can the aussies carry hayden ?

interestingly hayden averages less when taking the first nut of the innings then second, weird, it's a fair difference too, and over a long period, don't know why it would matter, i know langer always used to take the first nut and now hayden does

1st position innings 38 runs1204 hs137 ave34.40 sr59.60 h2 f7
2nd position innings 144 runs 7351 hs380 ave55.27 sr60.31 h28 f22
 
Last edited:

Top