*Official* England in West Indies

[Penguinissimo]

who wrote this ?

Lawrence Booth in the Guardian. Why, is it wrong? I haven't run the stats myself.

 

[sammy2]

Lawrence Booth in the Guardian. Why, is it wrong? I haven't run the stats myself.

Post the entire article, I want to read it.

 

[Jigga988]

ODI XI:
Gayle
Chattergoon/Marshall
Sarwan
Chanderpaul
Marshall/Findlay/Pollard
Bravo
Ramdin/Fletcher*/Baugh*
Taylor
Miller/ Benn/ Mohammed
Powell
Edwards/Sammy

Baugh or Fletcher with a string of performances gets intp the ODI team ahead of Ramdin.
Findlay needs runs against NZ or he should be for the drop. Pollard should be in the squad regardless to give him mroe than one series before dropping him.

I am not so sure about Pollard, he burst on to the scene in regional cricket a couple years ago had a greeat season, but ever since the WI put him in the world cup squad he has done nothing to warrent a place in the squad. He is really out of form and struggling, needs to regain FC form before being considered i reckon.

I think Ramdin is most comfertable in ODI's, even though he is more of a test batsman, he relaxes more and frees his arms on the offside. I liked the way Chanders opened and Marshall went in at 3... this was a good opening partnership a couple years ago and is worth considering, especially if we have Bravo coming in to the middle order. I don't really think there is a place for Chatergoon in the side. His style of play is not condusive to OD cricket, and I don't see anything from him that would change my opinion of that.

Sammy is not a bad punt, never done bad in OD cricket really, but i reckon Edwards should still probobly be considered over him due to his wicket taking abiliities. Also, when Bravo is in the side Edwards will not have to bowl at the death which would help his figures.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yea Joseph did look a bit out of depth vs ENG in 04 over here. But he isn't an opener really is he. Plus he looked pretty organised in that 20 million dollar match the other day.

He didn't bat in the $20million match...

Regardless, his heart isn't in cricket anymore, apparently. And he was batting out of position, yes, but batting in position most of his career he barely managed to average over 30 in FC cricket. Yes, his efforts improved in recent years, but not enough to demand selection. And certainly not ahead of someone like Ryan Hinds.

But seriously he clearly is the most solid player behind the big trio behind Chanders, Gayle n Sarwan

But in a team where only 3 batsmen are pushing world class, that's not saying very much at all. He shouldn't get a free ride because of it. I get what you're saying though.

Word, if Samuels wasn't banned & Collins was availbale the WI would look fairly good. I heard the Kolpak ruling is changing or sum so maybe some hope for Collins to return in the future.

The question is whether Collins would want to return. He hasn't been treated amazingly well. But a reversal of the Kolpak ruling would be useful.

On another point, although I rant about his batting constantly, West Indies can do (and are doing) a lot worse than Dwayne Smith as far as ODI bowlers go.

Gayle
Barath/Richards/ Chattergoon/Smith/Marshall
Sarwan
Nash
Chanderpaul

Nash ahead of Chanderpaul? You try to get your best batsmen as many overs as possible. And don't argue about Chanderpaul being the man for a crisis and therefore should bat with the tail. One thing he has proven over the last couple of years is that no matter when he comes in, he'll bat with the same cool resolve. Might as well give him a better chance at scoring some of his runs without crushing pressure, no?

Miller and Jaggernauth seem the best bets for a spinner spot. Mohammed maybe worth a punt as well.

Mohammed should be playing ODIs and Twenty20Is. I can't understand why Benn gets chosen ahead of him for the latter, in particular.

Darren Sammy also should be considered if he has a good season.

No way. Sammy the workmanlike medium pacer taking up a strike bowler's role? A seam attack of Taylor, Edwards, Sammy and Bravo would be hardpressed to bowl anyone out without a stunning spinner in the ranks (and that's a lot of pressure on a young spinner). You need a bowler who can actively take wickets, rather than occasionally pick them up. Bravo fills the role of the latter at the moment.

Dale Richards should be in contention if he has another good season.

Age isn't on his side, but I've long said he's one of the better players in the Caribbean.

Barath's a maybe and only if he scores well against a good pace attack.

Barath needs a big season, period. Last season he struggled to score against any attack. He stayed at the crease well enough and got several starts, but no big scores. After his excellent debut season, he needs to prove that he can consistently score centuries. He's probably the most phenomenal talent since Lara... but no pressure.

ODI XI:
Gayle
Chattergoon/Marshall
Sarwan
Chanderpaul

Chanders to open IMO. His record up there is undeniable and he's a good partner to Gayle's explosiveness.

Baugh or Fletcher with a string of performances gets intp the ODI team ahead of Ramdin.

Long past time to get rid of Baugh. He hasn't done anything of note against anyone except Australia recently. And in his chances for West Indies since his recall he has not only failed, but done so with some of the most daft shot selection you will ever see. It's like he wants to get dropped. Ramdin may not be a great batsman, but at least he's scoring runs in some form of cricket (albeit T20) and looks like he wants to be there. He's also vastly superior with the gloves.

Fletcher is a wildcard for me. I've not seen much of his wicketkeeping, but he looks to have some genuine batting talent. I wouldn't have minded him being in New Zealand instead of Findlay.

Findlay needs runs against NZ or he should be for the drop. Pollard should be in the squad regardless to give him mroe than one series before dropping him.

Pollard shouldn't be in the squad actually. Yes, he had a good T20 run recently, but he needs to prove his worth in List-A cricket before he gets into the ODI set up. Assessing him now as an international player is useless, because he so blatantly is not ready for international cricket.

Sammy is not a bad punt, never done bad in OD cricket really, but i reckon Edwards should still probobly be considered over him due to his wicket taking abiliities. Also, when Bravo is in the side Edwards will not have to bowl at the death which would help his figures.

Sammy does a job in ODI cricket, but will not often win matches. He can tie up an end and occasionally take wickets, but I see him more as a squad player than a first XI player. He should be the man to fill in when a bowler or Bravo is injured.

 

[Jigga988]

Nash ahead of Chanderpaul? You try to get your best batsmen as many overs as possible. And don't argue about Chanderpaul being the man for a crisis and therefore should bat with the tail. One thing he has proven over the last couple of years is that no matter when he comes in, he'll bat with the same cool resolve. Might as well give him a better chance at scoring some of his runs without crushing pressure, no?

If that logic applied then Chanders would bat at 4 or maybe even 3 but for some reason he has never liked to go up the order in test cricket and there has been a reluctance to do it in OD cricket, although i do agree with you that Chanders should without a doubt open in OD cricket and have Marshall at 3. Marshall against the Aussies showed he couldn't open and Chatergoon showed that he couldn't open to an extent against Pakistan.

I think the weakness in the ODI team and one we will have to face immediately against NZ is the fact that we haev no death bowlers, especially now without Bravo. Taylor lost us the first or second OD game against Pakistan when he gave away 20 runs in the last over to Akmal. Edwards is even more hopeless than Taylor when it comes to death bowling.

 

[Beamer]

Pollard shouldn't be in the squad actually. Yes, he had a good T20 run recently, but he needs to prove his worth in List-A cricket before he gets into the ODI set up. Assessing him now as an international player is useless, because he so blatantly is not ready for international cricket.

He has far more of a claim than Findlay.

He averaged 65 in this years WICB Cup with a strike rate well over 100.

In fact he averages 39 in his FC career,from 18 matches with 5 fifties. By our standards, he has earned his selection. If you take away his 4 ODI's so far he would average over 50.

He has not looked great so far I will admit, but he deserves to play at least 2/3 ODI's in a row before we discard him again.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If that logic applied then Chanders would bat at 4 or maybe even 3 but for some reason he has never liked to go up the order in test cricket and there has been a reluctance to do it in OD cricket, although i do agree with you that Chanders should without a doubt open in OD cricket and have Marshall at 3. Marshall against the Aussies showed he couldn't open and Chatergoon showed that he couldn't open to an extent against Pakistan.

I'm not sure if Chanders is reluctant to bat at 4 in Tests. But the reluctance to open in ODIs is well documented. It's strange, because he's one of the best ODI openers in the world, even though he hates the job.

I think the weakness in the ODI team and one we will have to face immediately against NZ is the fact that we haev no death bowlers, especially now without Bravo. Taylor lost us the first or second OD game against Pakistan when he gave away 20 runs in the last over to Akmal. Edwards is even more hopeless than Taylor when it comes to death bowling.

I don't think Taylor is a bad death bowler. Sure, he's been off recently, but I also remember a couple of excellent spells at the death that he has produced. I think in general his confidence has been low lately, though he's looked a lot better recently. If he bowls like he did in his comeback spell in the 2nd T20I, he could be very useful at the death.

He has far more of a claim than Findlay.

He averaged 65 in this years WICB Cup with a strike rate well over 100.

In fact he averages 39 in his FC career,from 18 matches with 5 fifties. By our standards, he has earned his selection. If you take away his 4 ODI's so far he would average over 50.

He has not looked great so far I will admit, but he deserves to play at least 2/3 ODI's in a row before we discard him again.

It's not a Pollard v Findlay argument I'm making though. It's a Pollard or not argument. For one, I believe Pollard has genuine talent to become a quality batsman, if not a quality allrounder. Findlay, however, looks nothing short of ordinary.

 

[Beamer]

It's not a Pollard v Findlay argument I'm making though. It's a Pollard or not argument. For one, I believe Pollard has genuine talent to become a quality batsman, if not a quality allrounder. Findlay, however, looks nothing short of ordinary.

Agreed. Pollard hits the ball a mile without trying too hard it seems. At least he has performed well in our domestic competitions too so I wish him all the best.

I will stop this Findlay witch hunt soon honestly, it's just that watching him bat (is he capable of such a thing?) makes me very angry as I know we have better players at our disposal.

 

[Furball]

I don't think this point has been given suitable attention by all:

Before Shivnarine Chanderpaul made a first-ball duck in Napier recently, his previous nine Test scores had been 86* (v Sri Lanka), 118, 11, 107*, 77*, 79*, 50 (all v Australia) and 76 and 126* (v New Zealand). His Test average for 2008 was 101. But then we shouldn't be too surprised: in 2007 he averaged 111. And yet how many people would include him unthinkingly in their World XI? If England think their next six Tests are going to be a breeze, they can think again.

In tests, without question. Easily the best Test batsman of the last 2 years.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

In tests, without question. Easily the best Test batsman of the last 2 years.

Also averages over 52 (6x100, 23x50) in ODI cricket since September 2004.

 

[Scaly piscine]

No way. Sammy the workmanlike medium pacer taking up a strike bowler's role? A seam attack of Taylor, Edwards, Sammy and Bravo would be hardpressed to bowl anyone out without a stunning spinner in the ranks (and that's a lot of pressure on a young spinner). You need a bowler who can actively take wickets, rather than occasionally pick them up. Bravo fills the role of the latter at the moment.

WI could pick 11 of their best bowlers and they'd be hard pressed to bowl anyone out.

 

[roseboy64]

WI could pick 11 of their best bowlers and they'd be hard pressed to bowl anyone out.

http://content-wi.cricinfo.com/wivaus/engine/match/319139.html

 

[roseboy64]

Nash ahead of Chanderpaul? You try to get your best batsmen as many overs as possible. And don't argue about Chanderpaul being the man for a crisis and therefore should bat with the tail. One thing he has proven over the last couple of years is that no matter when he comes in, he'll bat with the same cool resolve. Might as well give him a better chance at scoring some of his runs without crushing pressure, no?

That's based on Chanderpaul's reluctance to move in the order. Wouldn't mind Chanderpaul at 4 , Nash at 6 and Bravo at 5.

Mohammed should be playing ODIs and Twenty20Is. I can't understand why Benn gets chosen ahead of him for the latter, in particular.

Don't know either. Mohammed has good FC stats as well as LO so I figure he wouldn't be bad for another go.

No way. Sammy the workmanlike medium pacer taking up a strike bowler's role? A seam attack of Taylor, Edwards, Sammy and Bravo would be hardpressed to bowl anyone out without a stunning spinner in the ranks (and that's a lot of pressure on a young spinner). You need a bowler who can actively take wickets, rather than occasionally pick them up. Bravo fills the role of the latter at the moment.

Sammy does a job in ODI cricket, but will not often win matches. He can tie up an end and occasionally take wickets, but I see him more as a squad player than a first XI player. He should be the man to fill in when a bowler or Bravo is injured.

Your second paragraph there is why I'd put Sammy in the team. Edwards hasn't been too flash in ODIs and Sammy's done decent enough in them and there are other bowlers in there to take wickets.

Age isn't on his side, but I've long said he's one of the better players in the Caribbean.

Yep should be considered. A century or two would assist though but short season doesn't help.

Barath needs a big season, period. Last season he struggled to score against any attack. He stayed at the crease well enough and got several starts, but no big scores. After his excellent debut season, he needs to prove that he can consistently score centuries. He's probably the most phenomenal talent since Lara... but no pressure.

Agreed.

Chanders to open IMO. His record up there is undeniable and he's a good partner to Gayle's explosiveness.

Agreed but if he doesn't want to someone else will have to be found.

Long past time to get rid of Baugh. He hasn't done anything of note against anyone except Australia recently. And in his chances for West Indies since his recall he has not only failed, but done so with some of the most daft shot selection you will ever see. It's like he wants to get dropped. Ramdin may not be a great batsman, but at least he's scoring runs in some form of cricket (albeit T20) and looks like he wants to be there. He's also vastly superior with the gloves.

Baugh only in there on the basis of him being in the current ODI squad. If he doesn't do well or gets no further matches it'll be clear.

Fletcher is a wildcard for me. I've not seen much of his wicketkeeping, but he looks to have some genuine batting talent. I wouldn't have minded him being in New Zealand instead of Findlay.

Didn't do well against Australia when they toured and only has the T20 to back him.

Pollard shouldn't be in the squad actually. Yes, he had a good T20 run recently, but he needs to prove his worth in List-A cricket before he gets into the ODI set up. Assessing him now as an international player is useless, because he so blatantly is not ready for international cricket.

Pollard should be given a run IMO. Has the necessary qualities to be useful and like Findlay should be given time to find out if he's up to it yet or not.

 

[Scaly piscine]

http://content-wi.cricinfo.com/wivaus/engine/match/319139.html

Aye a piss poor Australia only scored over 400 on a dodgy pitch.

Good that Edwards finally got his bowling under 40 btw, tells you how good WI are when you pick a guy like that consistently such that he takes over 100 wickets.

 

[roseboy64]

South Africa
Sri Lanka
Edwards averaged 3 wickets per Test. Would say that's good for a guy picked with fewer than 10 FC matches.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

That's based on Chanderpaul's reluctance to move in the order. Wouldn't mind Chanderpaul at 4 , Nash at 6 and Bravo at 5.

Since when is Bravo good enough to bat at 5?

Your second paragraph there is why I'd put Sammy in the team. Edwards hasn't been too flash in ODIs and Sammy's done decent enough in them and there are other bowlers in there to take wickets.

There's only one bowler in the team right now who can usually be relied upon to take wickets. That's Jerome Taylor, and he's been out of sorts. One wicket-taker is not enough, even in ODI cricket. Edwards is also bowling quite well at the moment.

Yep should be considered. A century or two would assist though but short season doesn't help.

In fairness 10 matches, as it will be this coming season, is more than enough time for a decent batsman to get at least 2 hundreds against WI domestic bowlers.

Didn't do well against Australia when they toured and only has the T20 to back him.

He has a stronger case for limited overs selection than Findlay though. And Fletcher had no place playing international cricket against Australia. He's not ready for it yet, but certainly has the skills to develop.

Pollard should be given a run IMO.

Pollard should be picked in the same way that Ricardo Powell should have been consistently picked. He's being picked because he can hit big sixes, not because he can bat. What benefit is it to his development then? He has to understand that he has to learn how to bat and build innings before he's considered for internationals.

Has the necessary qualities to be useful and like Findlay should be given time to find out if he's up to it yet or not.

I don't see anything in Findlay to suggest that he has the necessary qualities to be useful. Please point them out.

 

[Scaly piscine]

South Africa
Sri Lanka
Edwards averaged 3 wickets per Test. Would say that's good for a guy picked with fewer than 10 FC matches.

It's not good for a Test bowler and that's what matters.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

South Africa
Sri Lanka
Edwards averaged 3 wickets per Test. Would say that's good for a guy picked with fewer than 10 FC matches.

Stop feeding the troll, dammit.

 

[roseboy64]

Just felt bored and like proving him wrong about the ability bowl out teams..

 

[roseboy64]

Since when is Bravo good enough to bat at 5?

Was just working out that Bravo doesn't seem fit for 6. Based on WI standards he's good enough for the top 6 though and would prefer Chaderpaul at 4. Bravo seems to play better higher up the order and since he's an allrounder 3 would be too early for him to bat.

There's only one bowler in the team right now who can usually be relied upon to take wickets. That's Jerome Taylor, and he's been out of sorts. One wicket-taker is not enough, even in ODI cricket. Edwards is also bowling quite well at the moment.

Edwards has been bowling well in Tests. Didn't play against Pakistan and I don't remember him doing well otherwise. Powell seems of use in ODIs as well.

In fairness 10 matches, as it will be this coming season, is more than enough time for a decent batsman to get at least 2 hundreds against WI domestic bowlers.

Yeah but previously matches were limited to mostly 5 per season and IIRC he hasn't scored a lot of centuries but usually has a good aggregate.

He has a stronger case for limited overs selection than Findlay though. And Fletcher had no place playing international cricket against Australia. He's not ready for it yet, but certainly has the skills to develop.

Agreed about Fletcher.

Pollard should be picked in the same way that Ricardo Powell should have been consistently picked. He's being picked because he can hit big sixes, not because he can bat. What benefit is it to his development then? He has to understand that he has to learn how to bat and build innings before he's considered for internationals.

I figure siince he's been given a chance he should get an extended run of at least 3 series to prove whether he's ready or not. If he gets found out at international level and gets dropped it should inspire him to look at what was wrong and fix it.

I don't see anything in Findlay to suggest that he has the necessary qualities to be useful. Please point them out.

Wasn't saying anything about Findlay being useful. Except maybe in the field it seems.