fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Let's hope so - he does have a better batting average than Dale Steyn .................. for the time being at leastBell might actually find his level against Aussie's attack next summer
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*Official* England in West Indies
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
Here are the averages for England's top 5 (plus, for interest, Vaughan) - the overall stat covers their whole Test career, the "filtered" stat removes runs scored against WI, NZ and Bangladesh.
You will see that Cook and Vaughan's averages are better against the good sides; KP, Strauss and Colly's fall very marginally (0.43 or less); but Bell's falls by 4.15 to 37.12. This is not a short-term thing, or a bandwagon - this is a long-term failing that has been present his whole career has has got no better, despite the odd breakthrough innings.
This man needs to be dropped. Now.
Strauss
Overall: 42.37
Filtered: 42.08
Diff: -0.29
Cook
Overall: 42.09
Filtered: 42.29
Diff: +0.20
Bell
Overall: 41.27
Filtered: 37.12
Diff: -4.15
Pietersen
Overall: 50.48
Filtered: 49.65
Diff: -0.43
Collingwood
Overall: 42.04
Filtered: 41.96
Diff: -0.08
Vaughan
Overall: 41.44
Filtered: 42.53
Diff: +1.09
These arguments against Bell are well known and in many ways valid. I still can't help that think in the long term he is at least as good as Collingwood. Lets not forget the Collingwood himself has had a pretty ordinary last two years saved by a couple of excellent career saving inings. I am in no way making a case for Bell replacing Collingwood at 5 and Shah coming in at 3, recent form makes this impossible but in an ideal world this what I would like to happen.
I freely admit that much of this opinion comes from personal preference. I will never claim to make a 100% rational judgment about a player, If I could then I would not like cricket half as much as I do. For this reason I have still not given up on Bell.
I freely admit that much of this opinion comes from personal preference. I will never claim to make a 100% rational judgment about a player, If I could then I would not like cricket half as much as I do. For this reason I have still not given up on Bell.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
But don't you think he would benefit by having a season in county cricket to work on his game? Don't you think we would learn more about Bell by dropping him and saying "go on son, go and make enough runs to force us to pick you again" than we ever could by letting him keep his spot?
Durham_CCC
School Boy/Girl Captain
Agreed, he will not play. Even if Panesar would bowl 40 overs for 200 runs, they would still not play Rashid.
garage flower
State Vice-Captain
Windies test team...
Any thoughts on possible West Indies test line ups in light of the series in New Zealand?
I think the big issue for the selectors is whether to stick with young players who clearly aren't test quality yet, in the hope that they have the talent to learn "on the job" as it were. Of the incumbents, this would apply principally, I think, to Chattergoon, Marshall and Baker, though given his recent run of form with the bat, Ramdin should perhaps be in the same category. It will also apply to players they might call up to replace either the struggling youngsters or others such as Benn and Powell who don't seem to be good enough for test cricket. Will they throw in talented youngsters with minimal experience or go for players who've performed consistently in domestic cricket?
Given the lack of quantity and quality (in terms of depth of talent, facilities, infrastructure etc) in domestic cricket, Windies selectors often seem to prefer picking young players on a hunch rather than being swayed by weight of runs or wickets in the first class arena. Dwayne Smith and Fidel Edwards are recent examples of this "policy" (though both may have owed their selections to the whims of unusually influential individuals) and both started with a bang only to struggle subsequently; largely - one would think - due to a lack of experience. Fidel is only now starting to look the part, some five years and 30-odd games into his test career.
I don't know enough about West Indies cricket to know whether this has always been the case, but certainly I remember the selectors being stung a few years ago when Stuart Williams and Junior Murray were recalled to the test side (v India, 2002) on the back of domestic success, only to fail miserably again at the highest level. More recently, Devon Smith and Ryan Hinds have struggled to make the grade despite producing consistently in the 4-day game.
Despite the absence of sponsors, the WICB have just confirmed that the first class competition starting in January will be played on a home and away basis, thus creating a 10-game season prior to any culminating knockout phase. This should provide a good opportunity for the younger players, in particular, to gain experience and start to make a more substantive case for international selection.
I'm in two minds on the issue. I do think though, that youngsters promoted to the test team on the back of a handful of first class games and/or in the absence of any consistent first class success, should have been identified as genuinely outstanding talents. In addition, selectors should be canny enough to make an informed assessment of the impact early test selection is likely to have on players' development.
Of the unproven youngsters in the current test squad, I would suggest that only Xavier Marshall is a candidate for the “fast track” route, but that isn’t to say I think it’s the best approach.
I’ll ruminate some more on my possible first test XI and await some thoughts from the rest of you…..
(EDIT: sorry for the long post - wasn't intended when I set off!)
Any thoughts on possible West Indies test line ups in light of the series in New Zealand?
I think the big issue for the selectors is whether to stick with young players who clearly aren't test quality yet, in the hope that they have the talent to learn "on the job" as it were. Of the incumbents, this would apply principally, I think, to Chattergoon, Marshall and Baker, though given his recent run of form with the bat, Ramdin should perhaps be in the same category. It will also apply to players they might call up to replace either the struggling youngsters or others such as Benn and Powell who don't seem to be good enough for test cricket. Will they throw in talented youngsters with minimal experience or go for players who've performed consistently in domestic cricket?
Given the lack of quantity and quality (in terms of depth of talent, facilities, infrastructure etc) in domestic cricket, Windies selectors often seem to prefer picking young players on a hunch rather than being swayed by weight of runs or wickets in the first class arena. Dwayne Smith and Fidel Edwards are recent examples of this "policy" (though both may have owed their selections to the whims of unusually influential individuals) and both started with a bang only to struggle subsequently; largely - one would think - due to a lack of experience. Fidel is only now starting to look the part, some five years and 30-odd games into his test career.
I don't know enough about West Indies cricket to know whether this has always been the case, but certainly I remember the selectors being stung a few years ago when Stuart Williams and Junior Murray were recalled to the test side (v India, 2002) on the back of domestic success, only to fail miserably again at the highest level. More recently, Devon Smith and Ryan Hinds have struggled to make the grade despite producing consistently in the 4-day game.
Despite the absence of sponsors, the WICB have just confirmed that the first class competition starting in January will be played on a home and away basis, thus creating a 10-game season prior to any culminating knockout phase. This should provide a good opportunity for the younger players, in particular, to gain experience and start to make a more substantive case for international selection.
I'm in two minds on the issue. I do think though, that youngsters promoted to the test team on the back of a handful of first class games and/or in the absence of any consistent first class success, should have been identified as genuinely outstanding talents. In addition, selectors should be canny enough to make an informed assessment of the impact early test selection is likely to have on players' development.
Of the unproven youngsters in the current test squad, I would suggest that only Xavier Marshall is a candidate for the “fast track” route, but that isn’t to say I think it’s the best approach.
I’ll ruminate some more on my possible first test XI and await some thoughts from the rest of you…..
(EDIT: sorry for the long post - wasn't intended when I set off!)
Neil Pickup
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Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yea another long term Bell-hater, pissed me right off when halfwits said his pressure-less ton against SA tripe bowling on a road was a turning point.
I personally think he should be dropped long-term, I mean we know he can score soft runs - so what's scoring shedloads at county level going to prove anyway? He just doesn't have the right mentality for international cricket and I don't see something like that changing.
For the same reason I wouldn't pick Shah either in OD or Tests, he's similar but with worse batting/fielding but not as bad mentally etc. He's an older competent bat but contributes little in the field, why are people so keen on him? He's a squad filler at best, if you're looking to be a good team you should be looking elsewhere.
I personally think he should be dropped long-term, I mean we know he can score soft runs - so what's scoring shedloads at county level going to prove anyway? He just doesn't have the right mentality for international cricket and I don't see something like that changing.
For the same reason I wouldn't pick Shah either in OD or Tests, he's similar but with worse batting/fielding but not as bad mentally etc. He's an older competent bat but contributes little in the field, why are people so keen on him? He's a squad filler at best, if you're looking to be a good team you should be looking elsewhere.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
Um, because the selectors can't think of a better alternative. Can you? Personally, I'd bring back MPV (as I said earlier in this thread), or promote KP to 3 and give Bopara a go at 4.
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
You may, but I'll disagree with you. How can someone still be a "prospect" after 45 Tests and 4 years in the team??
Penguinissimo
U19 12th Man
From Michael Atherton in the Times:
How close is Adil Rashid to the first XI?
A lot closer than a lot of people suggest. I watched him in the nets in India and was very impressed. England have selected three spinners for the Tests against the West Indies and Rashid has a bright future, but he is probably ready for the side now.
How close is Adil Rashid to the first XI?
A lot closer than a lot of people suggest. I watched him in the nets in India and was very impressed. England have selected three spinners for the Tests against the West Indies and Rashid has a bright future, but he is probably ready for the side now.
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
Prospect for a long and successful Test and ODI career. Pretty commonplace to disagree with me, but I think he looks too good to be a mere display of sophism (just wanted to use that word).
Jigga988
State 12th Man
Just to quickly comment about garage flower's post and the state of the Windies side for the test.
Basically, with regards to bowling Baker is an absolute joke of a bowler and should never ever be considered in the near future.
Regarding selection policies there are so many picks on potential because no one has a decent record in FC cricket except spinners and thats only due to the Windies batsmen not being used to playing spin. The only batsmen with stand out FC records that would warrant a test place, i.e. an average of 40 and above is Gayle, Sarwan and Chanders the rest all average under forty and Nash has only had one season in Carribean FC cricket, not sure how he did in Australia but thats besides the point.
My point being that people are picked on potential in the Windies because they can't really be picked on anything else. No one has a decent FC record apart from those mentioned above. I think Powell should retain his place, simply because he is better than Baker and any other bowler coming from the Windies.
Also, Bravo will come in for the test probobly to replace Chatergoon and Marshall will open
Basically, with regards to bowling Baker is an absolute joke of a bowler and should never ever be considered in the near future.
Regarding selection policies there are so many picks on potential because no one has a decent record in FC cricket except spinners and thats only due to the Windies batsmen not being used to playing spin. The only batsmen with stand out FC records that would warrant a test place, i.e. an average of 40 and above is Gayle, Sarwan and Chanders the rest all average under forty and Nash has only had one season in Carribean FC cricket, not sure how he did in Australia but thats besides the point.
My point being that people are picked on potential in the Windies because they can't really be picked on anything else. No one has a decent FC record apart from those mentioned above. I think Powell should retain his place, simply because he is better than Baker and any other bowler coming from the Windies.
Also, Bravo will come in for the test probobly to replace Chatergoon and Marshall will open
Scaly piscine
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Manee
Cricketer Of The Year
I'd happen to agree, if they want to pick someone on visible potential rather than statistics, at least go with Roach.
Jigga988
State 12th Man
Yeah, got more pace than Baker and is younger, sprays it around a bit though.
Beamer
International Vice-Captain
Excellent post, I agree that those are the issues that face the West Indian selectors.
My thoughts on various issues are as follows:
Young batsmen - Xavier Marshall has to be kept into the side IMHO, he needs another test series for us to have a look at him. I would say the same with Chattergoon, but if Adrian Barath scores a lot of runs this year then I would bring him in as he really does look the part and has the record to prove it. Dale Richards could be vying for that spot too, but they seem very reluctant to pick people over the age of 30 (apart from Nash).
If Ryan Hinds scores heavily he could end up with a place in the squad, ready to step into the side when injuries inevitably hit the side.
Wicket keepers - I have faith in Ramdin and would continue picking him for a bit longer, and I believe the selectors will too, especially after witnessing just how brain dead Carlton Baugh Jr is during pressure situations. Andre Fletcher is an interesting option for the selectors and if he scores runs for the WIndward Islands he could find himself in the keepers position.
Spinner - They seem sold on Benn for some reason, even though he is clearly inferior to Jaggernauth and Miller. Hopefully they will both have outstanding seasons yet again and the selectors will see sense. Young Davendra Bishoo from Guyana is a bit of an outside bet. He has taken 9 wickets in 2 FC matches so far, but he caught the eye of some locals with his well disguised googlies. They will porbably continue to pick the wrong spinner in Benn, and then discard spinners completely when he inevitably fails.
Fast bowlers - Taylor and Edwards are both certain picks if fit. Powell has to go though, he has had every opportunity to prove himself and has failed miserably more often than not, and has batted like a complete idiot with Shiv still going strong at the other end too many times. This spot should simply go to the best performing fast bowler in the domestic competition.. If I was to speculate, I would say the likely candidates are Kemar Roach, Lionel Baker, Nelson Pascal and young Jason Dawes from Jamaica.
Complete speculation on my part, but I think the XI will look something like this:
Gayle (c)
Chattergoon (Barath?)
Sarwan
Marshall
Chanderpaul
Nash
Bravo
Ramdin (wk)
Taylor
Benn (hopefully someone else though)
Edwards