Ranadeb Bose - another unsung Hero??

[krkode]

I feel like a lot of decent Indian seamers will ultimately miss out on careers at the international level just because they are not fast enough.

I know Debasis Mohanty sort of had a chance a few years ago, and he didn't perform too horribly. ODI average of 29 isn't that bad. And now I see he's been owning it up at the FC level in the last few years averaging 20, which is quite impressive. But if I remember, he was more of a gentle swing bowler than someone with express pace.

Someone like Praveen Kumar is a similar example. But Kumar seems like those rare lucky guys who gets a shot anyway - even still, we've been really selective with when we pick Kumar, such as only picking him for pitches where he will do well, like in Australia.

If we're talking about people who get full-time careers in the Indian side, like Sharma, Zaheer Khan, etc. I think the first thing selectors want to see is really fast pace.

Dunno if that's the right way to go about it, but that said, Indian fast bowling in general is probably stronger than it has ever been. We've often had one really good/decent seamer - first Kapil Dev and then Srinath. But now for the first time it could be argued that we have 2-3 pretty good ones. So it will be hard to break through for the new young bowlers who aren't as good at generating pace.

 

[masterblaster]

but look at his FC record

Should be taken with a grain of salt in my opinion. A great FC record often does not translate to a great test match record. We've seen it many times with Indian players in the past and with players from other countries (i.e. Mark Ramprakash, Graeme Hick). We've also seen many players do exceedingly well in International Cricket but who have poor FC records (i.e. Marcus Trescothick being one example).

You really need to not only have a lot of talent, but also a lot of mental toughness and an edge about you to succeed at International level. India A tours are generally a good indication of a player's ability to make it in International level.

Haven't seen anything of Bose myself, but I believe that during India's tour to England, he didn't impress many in the warm up games.

 

[Richard]

A great FC record often does not translate to a great test match record.

I don't know about "often does not", but yeah, a good domestic record is no guarantee of a good international record.

However, a good domestic player is always infinitely more likely to do better at international level than a poor domestic player.

 

[krkode]

Thing also is, a good domestic record for an Indian player can be misleading. Lots of Indian players who were selected on promising performances at home failed to perform abroad. Just because I guess batting is "easier" in India. Two batsmen with equal skill, given one is used to Indian conditions and the other used to English/etc. conditions, the Indian might average 5-10 more.

I guess I can't really explain why guys like Debasis Mohanty have such excellent FC records, though. Not often you see Indian domestic bowlers with averages that good.

 

[Precambrian]

Thing also is, a good domestic record for an Indian player can be misleading. Lots of Indian players who were selected on promising performances at home failed to perform abroad. Just because I guess batting is "easier" in India. Two batsmen with equal skill, given one is used to Indian conditions and the other used to English/etc. conditions, the Indian might average 5-10 more.

I guess I can't really explain why guys like Debasis Mohanty have such excellent FC records, though. Not often you see Indian domestic bowlers with averages that good.

Debashish was selected for tests before he was test class. And discarded rather quickly.

 

[krkode]

Debashish was selected for tests before he was test class. And discarded rather quickly.

Yeah, I used to watch him bowl. He has a decent ODI record as I've noted but hasn't been given much of a chance in tests. Either he was always that good in FC or he just really got a lot better recently. Doubt he will ever see international cricket again, though.

 

[Manee]

Trivedi? He's more a limited-overs stock seamer than one you'll have leading a bowling attack in Tests. Although there's nothing wrong with that- several leading seam/swing bowlers from different FC teams have failed as backup/stock bowlers.

I didn't say he would be a good Test bowler.

 

[Richard]

Thing also is, a good domestic record for an Indian player can be misleading. Lots of Indian players who were selected on promising performances at home failed to perform abroad. Just because I guess batting is "easier" in India. Two batsmen with equal skill, given one is used to Indian conditions and the other used to English/etc. conditions, the Indian might average 5-10 more.

I guess I can't really explain why guys like Debasis Mohanty have such excellent FC records, though. Not often you see Indian domestic bowlers with averages that good.

I certainly think it's quite ridiculous that Mohanty didn't get a bit more opportunity in Tests. He never particularly impressed me when I saw him, but that was in the 1999 WC. His 2 Tests were in a two-part home-and-away series on some pitches that were certainly among the flattest at that time if not in history (ie, SL vs Ind in 1997). He may or may not have been Test-class but he certainly had a damn sight better chance of being than plenty of Indian bowlers to have played in the intervening decade.

And as I say - a batsman with a First-Class average of 50+ in Indian domestic cricket is no guaranteed Test-class player, undoubtedly. But you have to think that, by-and-large, if someone doesn't average 50+ in Indian FC cricket, their chances of being Test-class are pretty slim. All the best players, including some well short of Test standard, do.

 

[Precambrian]

I certainly think it's quite ridiculous that Mohanty didn't get a bit more opportunity in Tests. He never particularly impressed me when I saw him, but that was in the 1999 WC. His 2 Tests were in a two-part home-and-away series on some pitches that were certainly among the flattest at that time if not in history (ie, SL vs Ind in 1997). He may or may not have been Test-class but he certainly had a damn sight better chance of being than plenty of Indian bowlers to have played in the intervening decade.

And as I say - a batsman with a First-Class average of 50+ in Indian domestic cricket is no guaranteed Test-class player, undoubtedly. But you have to think that, by-and-large, if someone doesn't average 50+ in Indian FC cricket, their chances of being Test-class are pretty slim. All the best players, including some well short of Test standard, do.

He was reasonably good in WC 1999. Took 10 wickets from 6 matches @ 26.00 Eco being 5.00. Took a bit of time coming to terms with the new conditions, but his performance in the last 2 matches against Pakistan and NZ were very good.

 

[Richard]

I thought him pretty moderate TBH, apart from in the first half of his spell against England where he cashed-in on very friendly conditions.

Those are the only ODIs I saw him play though.

 

[Jonty Lathwal]

Should be taken with a grain of salt in my opinion. A great FC record often does not translate to a great test match record. We've seen it many times with Indian players in the past and with players from other countries (i.e. Mark Ramprakash, Graeme Hick). We've also seen many players do exceedingly well in International Cricket but who have poor FC records (i.e. Marcus Trescothick being one example).

Everyone among these English players got a chance (read many & many chances)
& when they didn't perform as expected.......they were dropped......

But Bose has not yet got a chance even....to prove himself.
I know there 27 FC teams in India.....so everyone cannot get a chance.......but people having
records like him always deserve...

 

[analyst]

If Debashish Mohanty was an unsung hero and if Paras Mhambrey was also one then sure why not Bose is an unsung hero. Otherwise if common sense did prevail and we did recognise that there are several domestic cricketers who don't get the rewards of a good season in India, then we would realise the like of Sahubuddin, Gagandeep Singh et all random one season wonders deserve no more or no less recognition than they deserve. Its a harsh game is cricket and until the domestic structure has a serious revamp by this I mean that aside from the elite league, the second tier cricketers are made relevant also, then domestic cricket will always be stangnant and irrelevant.

 

[Manee]

If Debashish Mohanty was an unsung hero and if Paras Mhambrey was also one then sure why not Bose is an unsung hero. Otherwise if common sense did prevail and we did recognise that there are several domestic cricketers who don't get the rewards of a good season in India, then we would realise the like of Sahubuddin, Gagandeep Singh et all random one season wonders deserve no more or no less recognition than they deserve. Its a harsh game is cricket and until the domestic structure has a serious revamp by this I mean that aside from the elite league, the second tier cricketers are made relevant also, then domestic cricket will always be stangnant and irrelevant.

Good point. I believe that the way to combat this problem, which you have eloquantly phrased, is to turn the current system into a simple two-tier system and introduce a new Premier League.

This Premier League should contain approximately eight teams, perhaps with some sort of connection to zonal cricket or IPL franchises and contain the cream of the crop. This way, the best players will be sought after in a competitive market - people going out and looking for the best players, in first-tier, second-tier, in the nets, in the club cricket, etc. because they need to, to win their league. Punts will be taken on second-tier cricket, whereas this might not be the case currently, as international selectors will be relectant to take a Plate League bully, purely upon that fact.

This'd also reduce the rather absurd notion of players playing an entire Ranji Season and then going on to play one, two or three games in the Duleep Trophy, etc. Ranging up and down in quality, with natural changes in form, one is unsure as to whether someone who has topped the Ranji Trophy run scorers list but got three ducks in Duleep Trophy is just **** or has slipped in bad form - utterly ludicrous.

This way, the BCCI can truly increase the standard of the game where it matters - in this new Premier League. Eight teams, there is no excuse not to provide the top facilities, the best pitches, where talent can be truly tested in an environment similar to international cricket.

 

[analyst]

Good point. I believe that the way to combat this problem, which you have eloquantly phrased, is to turn the current system into a simple two-tier system and introduce a new Premier League.

This Premier League should contain approximately eight teams, perhaps with some sort of connection to zonal cricket or IPL franchises and contain the cream of the crop. This way, the best players will be sought after in a competitive market - people going out and looking for the best players, in first-tier, second-tier, in the nets, in the club cricket, etc. because they need to, to win their league. Punts will be taken on second-tier cricket, whereas this might not be the case currently, as international selectors will be relectant to take a Plate League bully, purely upon that fact.

This'd also reduce the rather absurd notion of players playing an entire Ranji Season and then going on to play one, two or three games in the Duleep Trophy, etc. Ranging up and down in quality, with natural changes in form, one is unsure as to whether someone who has topped the Ranji Trophy run scorers list but got three ducks in Duleep Trophy is just **** or has slipped in bad form - utterly ludicrous.

This way, the BCCI can truly increase the standard of the game where it matters - in this new Premier League. Eight teams, there is no excuse not to provide the top facilities, the best pitches, where talent can be truly tested in an environment similar to international cricket.

The Duleep Trophy should be a tournament that opens the season as opposed to something that closes the season off. The Ranji Trophy as you say atm is ridiculous long and while I am in favour of your structure, there seems more chance of them not ditching the Duleep Trophy, so perhaps they could just move it to a different time like the Charity Shield in football and while I know they have the Irani Trophy for that, they could also have the Duleep Trophy at the same time too. To me it makes perfect sense.

 

[irfan]

Bose should stick to making speakers and headphones, tbf.

 

[Manee]

The Duleep Trophy should be a tournament that opens the season as opposed to something that closes the season off. The Ranji Trophy as you say atm is ridiculous long and while I am in favour of your structure, there seems more chance of them not ditching the Duleep Trophy, so perhaps they could just move it to a different time like the Charity Shield in football and while I know they have the Irani Trophy for that, they could also have the Duleep Trophy at the same time too. To me it makes perfect sense.

At the end of the season though, it is a reward for the strong performers of the season though. However, the competition is so ridiculously short that it cheapens not only the contest but the value as a selection gauge.

I think we'll agree that the current system is appalling though. Someone like Ashok Dinda went straight into India A ranks after the IPL (something I disagree with, but we'll ignore that) but is in a Plate team, so his form can't be tracked accurately. He took 5/28 today, but he was against Asaam, so can it really be taken seriously, the answer is probably no. The current system of the Plate teams qualifying for the quarter-finals is a way to combat this, but again, there are precious few games.

 

[analyst]

At the end of the season though, it is a reward for the strong performers of the season though. However, the competition is so ridiculously short that it cheapens not only the contest but the value as a selection gauge.

I think we'll agree that the current system is appalling though. Someone like Ashok Dinda went straight into India A ranks after the IPL (something I disagree with, but we'll ignore that) but is in a Plate team, so his form can't be tracked accurately. He took 5/28 today, but he was against Asaam, so can it really be taken seriously, the answer is probably no. The current system of the Plate teams qualifying for the quarter-finals is a way to combat this, but again, there are precious few games.

I think the plate system is not entirely flawed, although I have not yet seen Dinda first hand, he did have a good season in the competition all be it a 20/20 competition. It can be argued that Manpreet Ghoni was also not deserving of a call up, he hasn't really impressed all that much in domestic cricket.

For e.g. there is a player called Yashpal Singh in domestic cricket, I think he plays for Services and Kolkata, he is an exceptional talent, just plays for the wrong team. I mean I know we only have stats to rely on but any player IMO who can score that heavily for a mediocre team like Services deserves a call up to the A team more so than some batsmen like Kaif etc. It now offends me that Kaif is persisted with, I used to once see him as a great beacon of light now I see him as a waste of talent we need to dispose of from the international scene to give room to talents like Singh etc.

 

[adharcric]

I think the plate system is not entirely flawed, although I have not yet seen Dinda first hand, he did have a good season in the competition all be it a 20/20 competition. It can be argued that Manpreet Ghoni was also not deserving of a call up, he hasn't really impressed all that much in domestic cricket.

For e.g. there is a player called Yashpal Singh in domestic cricket, I think he plays for Services and Kolkata, he is an exceptional talent, just plays for the wrong team. I mean I know we only have stats to rely on but any player IMO who can score that heavily for a mediocre team like Services deserves a call up to the A team more so than some batsmen like Kaif etc. It now offends me that Kaif is persisted with, I used to once see him as a great beacon of light now I see him as a waste of talent we need to dispose of from the international scene to give room to talents like Singh etc.

Don't forget that Yashpal Singh only has to score those runs against the mediocre bowling attacks of the Plate League. That said, he has done fine in the few opportunities that he's had against better opposition. Yashpal's time may have come and gone but consider the more relevant case of Manoj Tiwary, considered a leading young prospect but this entire season will mean nothing simply because Bengal were relegated and he's facing the likes of Assam.

 

[Manee]

I think the plate system is not entirely flawed, although I have not yet seen Dinda first hand, he did have a good season in the competition all be it a 20/20 competition. It can be argued that Manpreet Ghoni was also not deserving of a call up, he hasn't really impressed all that much in domestic cricket.

Dinda cranked it up to 140kph in the IPL, but stayed mainly in the 130kph area, the key was that due to his action (a large leap and explosion) and outswing, he looked a geniune wicket taker and yet remained very economical throughout the IPL. Gony had a good Deodhar Trophy, so was arguably deserving of an ODI call up after showing himself an international paced bowler. I believed a more refined domestic system would reduce the absurdity of having to watch the IPL to see if a bowler can succeed against high level opposition. This sort of issue can cause ignoring of the domestic system in favour of seeing a talent in the IPL and picking them to get a closer look whereas we should have a system full of these 'talents' to pick from in the first place so we can see which one is the best performer in whichever of the three forms of the game it may be.

For e.g. there is a player called Yashpal Singh in domestic cricket, I think he plays for Services and Kolkata, he is an exceptional talent, just plays for the wrong team. I mean I know we only have stats to rely on but any player IMO who can score that heavily for a mediocre team like Services deserves a call up to the A team more so than some batsmen like Kaif etc. It now offends me that Kaif is persisted with, I used to once see him as a great beacon of light now I see him as a waste of talent we need to dispose of from the international scene to give room to talents like Singh etc.

Indeed, this is a direct result of him playing in the Plate League where his statistics are not taken seriously. However, it is also a result of the BCCI not trusting domestic cricket, once referring to it as a pool of stagnation, but rather the U19 system as a feeder to international cricket. Both problems support the revamping of the domestic system.

 

[analyst]

Dinda cranked it up to 140kph in the IPL, but stayed mainly in the 130kph area, the key was that due to his action (a large leap and explosion) and outswing, he looked a geniune wicket taker and yet remained very economical throughout the IPL. Gony had a good Deodhar Trophy, so was arguably deserving of an ODI call up after showing himself an international paced bowler. I believed a more refined domestic system would reduce the absurdity of having to watch the IPL to see if a bowler can succeed against high level opposition. This sort of issue can cause ignoring of the domestic system in favour of seeing a talent in the IPL and picking them to get a closer look whereas we should have a system full of these 'talents' to pick from in the first place so we can see which one is the best performer in whichever of the three forms of the game it may be.



Indeed, this is a direct result of him playing in the Plate League where his statistics are not taken seriously. However, it is also a result of the BCCI not trusting domestic cricket, once referring to it as a pool of stagnation, but rather the U19 system as a feeder to international cricket. Both problems support the revamping of the domestic system.

Well that is true, the IPL and 20-20 has aided Indian cricket in finding the likes of Yusuf Pathan,Praveen Kumar etc and rebuilding careers like Gambhir,Sehwag, Harbajhan etc. I think its not entirely useless in it does help build players mental focus towards international cricket.

The domestic structure is a problem that needs addressing from several good captains/selectors and administrators alike. This will happen if future Indian captains follow the likes of Ganguly into some sort of administration role in the BCCI to affect the future of Indian cricket.

Don't forget that Yashpal Singh only has to score those runs against the mediocre bowling attacks of the Plate League. That said, he has done fine in the few opportunities that he's had against better opposition. Yashpal's time may have come and gone but consider the more relevant case of Manoj Tiwary, considered a leading young prospect but this entire season will mean nothing simply because Bengal were relegated and he's facing the likes of Assam.

I am not in the least bit convinced about Tiwary after seeing him in Australia, he has a lot of time left but he will have to learn fast if he wants to make a comeback.